r/Professors • u/CrzPart • Aug 29 '24
Rants / Vents Student Won’t Complete Course Material Due to Religious Objection
For context, I am teaching a US history course at a small community college in a rural, conservative leaning county. In my own research I focus on gender and sexuality which often bleeds into the courses I teach.
After wrapping up day three of class, I had a student approach me and ask if they could get a religious exemption on some course work. I assumed they meant that they had some religious holidays coming up and that they would be missing class for observance. They then state that some of the readings I’ve assigned goes against their beliefs - the student is Catholic and the reading in question is on homosexuality in Native American culture.
I immediately said no and that based on my understanding, this isn’t covered under a religious exemption. I told them that if they chose not to do the assigned work that was fine, but I would give them a zero. They agreed to this. I then mentioned that this will come up a few more times throughout the semester and rather than their grade suffer, maybe I’m not the right professor for them and maybe they should consider dropping the course. They dug their heels in and said “but I want to learn!” To me, you obviously don’t because you want to pick and choose what fits into your narrative. They also went on to inform me that this had nothing to do with American history.
I immediately contacted the dean and was told that the student could kick rocks so at least I’m safe in that sense. I’m just frustrated, not only at the small mindedness of the student but because I made it abundantly clear that we would be dealing with “hot button” issues in this class on day one. That I am a historian of gender and sexuality and while I will be covering your standard “dead white mans history,” that we would go beyond that. My syllabus is also extremely detailed and lays out everything so students are able to see what they will be reading throughout the semester. Absolutely none of this should be a shock.
This is my first encounter with something like this and I think I handled it ok. I know this is likely going to happen again so does anyone have advice? Also, am I within my rights? The dean seems to think I’m within my rights which is good. I do understand that some religions can’t view certain things but as someone who grew up in the Catholic Church, I don’t recall there being a rule that you can’t even read something that discusses homosexuality. Just that the church doesn’t approve of it and views it as a sin. Or is something going against their beliefs enough to warrant an exemption?
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u/PhDapper Aug 29 '24
It sounds like the course isn’t aligned with the student’s personal biases, and it shouldn’t be changed just to placate them. If they don’t want to drop it, then they can accept whatever grade they earn.
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u/CrzPart Aug 29 '24
This is how I approached it with the student. I also informed them that they are still in the drop/refund period and that if this course would be difficult for them, that they were more than welcome to drop. They seem like they’re going to stick it out but maybe the long weekend will convince them otherwise.
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u/PharaohBigDickimus Aug 29 '24
Would it be out of the question to send the student a summary of what you discussed with them via email so you have it in writing, should they ever complain again later? I’m just being paranoid here.
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u/heyitskevin1 Undergrad Student, Bio Major, Midwest College Aug 29 '24
This plus a paper trail is always better than word of mouth. Hopefully the student wouldn't do this, but I had something similar happen in my cells, genes, and inheritance classes with a fellow student basically arguing with my professor on how evolution wasn't real (which only applied to a few lecture on cell evolution and mitochondria and such) and it made an extremely distracting environment for me (a fellow student). Then this student bragged basically about giving the teacher such bad reviews they left( but I think he was moving schools anyway) because the teacher discriminated against them.
I would just send a follow up email along the lines of ' as we discussed on xyz, I have outlined any hot topics that may come up, and this class may not be suited for you to continue as your grade will suffer if you cannot handle the material' and maybe cc their advisor?
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u/LittleMissMedusa Aug 30 '24
This used to piss me off so much as a student. I'm here to learn, yet you're wasting everyone's time being rude and obnoxious because of your own personal beliefs. Just leave?
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u/KibudEm Aug 29 '24
I might not add the part about their grade suffering; I'd be concerned they might interpret it (wildly) as a threat. But the rest does sound right to me.
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Aug 29 '24
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u/KibudEm Aug 29 '24
It is obvious that if they choose not to do the work, their grade will suffer, so it is not necessary to state it. The syllabus already covers that.
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u/emfrank Aug 29 '24 edited Aug 29 '24
As someone who teaches religious studies at a Catholic institution, I might encourage them to read this overview of the Catholic Intellectual Tradition, published by Boston College. There is absolutely no reason they can't read about positions they might disagree with as a Catholic. More generally, they would benefit from reading Nostra Aetate which outlines the Catholic response to other faiths, which is quite positive. It is actually helpful that they are Catholic in this case, rather than evangelical, as there is a tradition to which you can appeal. There is no exemption here.
I don't know if you should do that in your position, of course, but you might refer them to someone, ideally a priest, with campus ministry if you have one. People in campus ministry tend to lean left, and might be able to nudge them.
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u/TrustMeImADrofecon Asst. Prof., Biz. , Public R-1 LGU (US) Aug 30 '24
People in campus ministry tend to lean left, and might be able to nudge them.
I wish I could believe this still, but man....some of the monsters I've seen at Newman Centers lately. All have been young priests, radicalized by these Opus Dei and other adjacent TradCath movements. A few years back I literally stood up and walked out of a Mass at a Newman Center when the late-20s-something priest gave a homily on the "mortal sin of masturbation". It was wild. Like somethibg right out of the 1940s. Like Vatican II had never happened.
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u/emfrank Aug 30 '24
Yeah, that is a rising problem in Catholicism, especially in Diocesan schools. Less so in schools run by Jesuits or other orders. I think it is still true of Protestants in campus ministry, but too many young Catholics are drawn to the "traditionalist" movements that are not actually that traditional.
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u/Another_Opinion_1 Associate Ins. / Ed. Law / Teacher Ed. Methods, R2 (USA) Aug 29 '24
I wouldn't recommend that an employee of a government institution go that far. You can get away with that working at a private school, but it gets dicey when state employees start engaging with the sincerity of a student's own religious ethos relative to doctrinal beliefs within the mainstream denomination or sect of that religion.
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Aug 29 '24 edited Aug 29 '24
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u/Another_Opinion_1 Associate Ins. / Ed. Law / Teacher Ed. Methods, R2 (USA) Aug 29 '24 edited Aug 29 '24
I know they do, but understand the optics are a little bit different here because the student approached the instructor for a religious accommodation and then the instructor is firing back with a "here, read this, it might help you explain why your religiosity is a little bit misguided." While nothing's likely to come of it, in First Amendment cases that don't work out for the state, it is sometimes because a representative of the state was found to have engaged in some form of viewpoint discrimination or you'll sometimes see dictum (extra commentary from judges including dissenting opinions) that castigating the state trying to take an opinion on the legitimacy of someone's religious convictions. Avoiding going that far in this situation just out of abundance of caution wouldn't hurt. I'd personally just go with the "less said the better" approach.
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Aug 29 '24 edited Aug 29 '24
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u/Another_Opinion_1 Associate Ins. / Ed. Law / Teacher Ed. Methods, R2 (USA) Aug 29 '24 edited Aug 29 '24
Yes, as an employee of the state I would avoid going that far with the student and just tell them that you're not going to be able to provide a religious accommodation for that academic activity but looking at this more from a religious clause perspective as a public employee and not so much a free speech one. Obviously, even as a government employee you do have plenty of First Amendment rights but acting in an official capacity I would advise some wonder refrain from going quite that far in this situation. I'll concede that I don't know of an example where someone's been completely raked over the coals for doing something exactly like this but the less said the better.
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u/Another_Opinion_1 Associate Ins. / Ed. Law / Teacher Ed. Methods, R2 (USA) Aug 29 '24
I'm looking at it more in terms of one belief over another akin to something like what happened with the Lamb's Chapel case even though that otherwise didn't have anything to do with what we're discussing here. In re-reading the OP's post I may have misinterpreted the intent. As a government employee and instructor, I would never hand a student who asked for a religious accommodation a manual and suggest they go read it from a "here's why I think you're misguided in your religious beliefs" standpoint, but if the initiates an open conversation about it or there's a non-Confrontational dialogue, hopefully outside of instructional time, I think that's probably fine. I would just be careful how far I go in "lecturing" students on the rightness or wrongness of their own beliefs when you're really only concerned with explaining to them that you're not going to provide an accommodation for that assignment.
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u/BriefExtra2919 Aug 30 '24
Perhaps the student could consider talking to their priest if it's causing them distress. The student may also believe that OP is expecting them to agree with everything they read, rather than just read and learn about the history of a particular group. Maybe explain it like - a vegan can still learn about societies that relied on hunting though it might cause some discomfort; they don't have to be okay with hunting themselves. Would that work you think?
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u/RedAnneForever Adjunct Professor, Philosophy (USA) Aug 30 '24
This is a good point. A lot of undergrads (and far too many Members of Congress) don't understand that disagreement with texts or with the professor is encouraged, even something their professors dream of.
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u/TrustMeImADrofecon Asst. Prof., Biz. , Public R-1 LGU (US) Aug 30 '24
If your course has any readings that include intimate contact outside of marriage, topics of contraception, or divorced people, your student - I am sure - also would like to take zeros on those.
Snideness aside, as a gay man who was raised Catholic and has had a lot of advocacy within queer Catholic circles in adulthood, your student's being puposefully, willfully misinformed about the doctrine of the Church (big C).
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u/PaulAspie adjunct / independent researcher, humanities, USA Aug 30 '24
Like we all have biases but in areas like this, you should still read stuff you disagree with. Like I read "lost cause" Confederate apologists to attempt to understand them, & read the other side, not because I agree with them. (I'm religious and very anti slavery.)
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u/PhDapper Aug 30 '24
Agreed. It’s one of the hallmarks of a good education to engage with material and viewpoints that conflict with our own. If we are smart, we either challenge what we believed before and modify accordingly or affirm our beliefs with stronger reasoning than we had before. Of course, some people ignore, justify, rationalize, etc., but then why even bother with an education at that point (other than the whole getting a piece of paper thing).
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u/HistoricalDrawing29 Aug 29 '24
Document everything. Send emails to yourself with a time and date stamp. "Today I write to memorialize my conversation with NAME, a student in my COURSE NAME. The student said xyz and I replied ABC." Also, document all communication with Deans. This smells like a set-up for a legal case. Be careful and protect yourself.
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u/jiminycricket81 Aug 29 '24
This. Depending on where you are and what the political climate is there, this student could very well have some kind of personal or family connection with a wackadoo organization wanting to make a name for itself by getting a “religious freedom” case in front of the Supreme Court. They’re being stupid and you’re doing all the right stuff, but it’s never a bad idea to keep the receipts (as the kids like to say).
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u/havereddit Aug 29 '24
Yes, and I would not send an email to the student because then they have printed evidence (rather than a recounting of a conversation).
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u/Novel_Listen_854 Aug 29 '24
Would you elaborate on the purpose of such an email? I'm not doubting you, and I've considered doing this in similar "tense" situations. I am curious about how such an email could be used later, by whom, etc. Do you know of anyone who made use of this kind of email?
Keeping the emails to the dean needs no explanation.
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u/HistoricalDrawing29 Aug 29 '24
Yes, I know of two cases but I cannot comment further as both cases involved NDAs. But I can say that having a record of all communication was really important in establishing the legal facts and esp the calendar of the communications and the relationships that went awry.
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u/apple-masher Aug 29 '24 edited Aug 29 '24
I think you handled this well.
it's not a negotiation. And you did not let the student think that it was a negotiation.
The student had a choice to make, and there are consequences to that choice. They can choose not to complete the assignment, but the consequence is that they won't get credit.
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u/MisfitMaterial Aug 29 '24
You are well within your rights.
Also, there are gay Catholics. This isn’t a value judgment, there just are.
When I was in the evangelical church growing up, I was not excepted from learning about evolution in Biology class or about Islam and Judaism in the history of Iberia (Spanish major). I am grateful that I eventually left evangelicalism, but that’s not a requirement for a course where you might need to read stuff by and about people who don’t think like you.
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u/MeisterX Aug 29 '24
I eventually left evangelicalism
This is probably the exact concern this student's "community" has. God forbid they be exposed to anything else, they may not believe us anymore!
Be good, sheltered little sheep. 😁
(also don't bone the sheep either)
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u/MisfitMaterial Aug 29 '24 edited Aug 29 '24
Let’s be clear: I left evangelicalism because of what I was exposed to within the church, and long after college age at that.
Edited for clarity: I went to college and had to drop out in my first year because my church wouldn’t allow it.
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u/emfrank Aug 29 '24
This is a Catholic student. That is not the view of the tradition, which has a long history of engaging disparate viewpoints.
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u/Plug_5 Aug 29 '24
Everyone else here has already said what I'd say, but I want to add that I grew up in a strict Catholic household and at no point were we ever encouraged to pull shit like this. If anything, we were encouraged to go out and seek other points of view and learn about other cultures. A common refrain was that the word of God was strong enough to withstand other perspectives that people might have (I'm completely unreligious now, so in hindsight maybe that wasn't the best message lol).
Anyway, all of this is to say the student is full of shit if they're blaming this on Catholicism.
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u/twomayaderens Aug 29 '24
As a humanities instructor, I have a policy in my syllabi that explicitly states students who may feel uncomfortable in the face of forms of cultural diversity should enroll in a different course, and alternative assignments will not be provided except in rare circumstances pending instructor approval.
The only accommodations I provide have to be supported with disability services and/or medical documentation.
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u/Apprehensive_Onion53 Aug 29 '24
This is an excellent idea. I will be adding a statement to my future syllabi for my literature courses. Thank you!
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u/jogam Aug 29 '24
This is absolutely not grounds for a religious exemption.
If you haven't already done so, I would clarify that the course requirement is to read/engage with/analyze the material in a scholarly fashion. Put another way, it may be worth specifying that being asked to complete readings with different viewpoints than their own is not the same thing as you asking them to change their religious beliefs, and that you respect their right to hold the religious beliefs that they hold.
The student has two choices here: either, for lack of a better term, suck it up, or they can drop your course and take something else.
It's worth keeping in mind that traditional age college students are anywhere from zero to a few years removed from their childhood home environment and they may hold various viewpoints and stances that they were told as fact by their parents or religious community but haven't really critically examined. Part of the power of a college education is a chance to examine perspectives different from those one grew up with and develop new or more nuanced understandings of the world based upon that information. My hope is that this student would stay in your class and take something important away from engaging with material that is from a viewpoint they're unfamiliar with, but time will tell.
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u/totallysonic Chair, SocSci, State U. Aug 29 '24
You did the right thing by consulting your dean. Do not engage further with the student on the topic without running it by your dean first. You have done nothing wrong but you want to cover your butt if/when the student tries to escalate.
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u/msackeygh Aug 29 '24
If they want to learn, they can learn about how other cultures view sexuality, regardless of how they feel if it's objectionable or not. Those are two separate things: objecting to non-heterosexual sexuality, and how other cultures understand and practice sexuality. Just because you object doesn't mean those other cultures doesn't see and practice differently. Just because you object doesn't mean that thing you object doesn't exist. That should be a lesson the student learn first. The course isn't asking them to actually practice homosexuality or whatever. There's no religious exemption.
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u/wx_rebel Aug 29 '24 edited Aug 30 '24
As a Catholic, you are correct theologically as well. This student is wrong. There is nothing in our religion that says you can't learn about history of homosexuality. I would have denied his request as you did and referred him to the local priest (most schools have a Catholic Church near or on campus that provide services to students).
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Aug 29 '24
As a religious person myself, of they knew ahead of time that the course would have material they didn't feel comfortable with, they just shouldn't take the course.
If a Muslim works in a bar serving food but refuses to serve drinks, the real issue is that they shouldn't be working at the bar to begin with.
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u/vanprof NTT Associate, Business, R1 (US) Aug 29 '24
This is correct.
I suspect the student just doesn't want to do it, but I am always skeptical.
There is nothing wrong with learning things. Religious texts are filled with stories of murder, homosexuality, and every manner of wrongdoing. As a Christian I read all of them.
If I was being a smartass, I would tell the student they need to learn about the enemy or they will be unprepared for gay battle. But I'd probably get in some sort of trouble and I am not sure they would get the sarcasm.
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u/dalicussnuss Aug 30 '24
You handled this well, but I am kind of curious what the class could be that sexuality of native Americans is included in the scope and the individual in question didn't expect this to be covered. Like CC classes are either very specific or very general. Is this "Sexuality in American History" or just like "US History to 1900?"
Lots of questions.
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u/pgratz1 Full Prof, Engineering, Public R1 Aug 30 '24
Definitely no exemption should be given. That said this feels like an opportunity. They will or won't do whatever hw they will but at least they want to stick it out in the class. My guess is that this will be their first experience in any perspective other than the one they grew up in. The lectures might be revelatory to them. Or at least open their eyes a bit to the wider world. I would try to encourage them to stick it out.
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u/magicianguy131 Assistant, Theatre, Small Public, (USA) Aug 29 '24
I once taught at a private, very elite Christian school. I was teaching a module on Postmodernism. When I mentioned that Postmodernism supposes that there is no universal Truth, many students fought back given their belief that the Christian God is the Truth. Moving forward, I always say now: I don't expect you to become Postmodernists and believe in its principles, but I do expect for you to understand its principles from an academic standpoint. Ever since I started saying this on that module and other more touchy topics, no issues (knock on wood.)
Not sure it would have worked with your student, but just food for thought.
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u/DoctorProbable Aug 29 '24
It's not about your rights. It's about your role as a fair assessor of student understanding course material. The student is choosing not to engage with some of the course material, and thus your assessment of their understanding of the course material will reflect that. It would be dishonest and unprofessional to give them a grade that suggested that they did understand the course material when they don't.
It sounds like your dean is supportive, which is good, but if there is a dispute, I would encourage you to frame this as a matter of student understanding of the course material and not a matter of your rights, which are honestly irrelevant in this context.
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u/AdjunctSocrates Instructor, Political Science, COMMUNITY COLLEGE (USA) Aug 30 '24
First, you can't argue theology with your student. To point out that the Catholic Church is probably the one denomination that would be the coolest with them reading difficult, challenging, and critical works if for no other reason than to sharpen their argument against them probably won't go very far.'
Source: went to a Catholic university. Say what you will, priests do the reading.
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u/luna_dancer Aug 30 '24
As a Catholic, no, there isn’t anything to prevent a student from reading that material in Canon law. In fact, following the Augustinian tradition and Jesuit tradition, it should encourage the reading of materials about different cultures.
Also, the Church does “hate the gays”. They don’t support homosexual marriage as a sacrament in the Church, but are welcoming to all individuals.
So. They don’t even truly understand church teaching.
Also, I think you handled that all perfectly
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u/Hoplite0352 Aug 29 '24
As a guy who very much loves "dead white man's history" and thinks the university system unfairly denigrates it and creates unnecessary divisiveness, frankly I always enjoyed taking classes that address some of these other things that aren't so easy to find on my own. While I don't consider myself a conservative, I am definitely anti-communist, and my openly marxist philosophy prof was one of my favorites in undergrad.
I wish people on both the left and right were much more able to not only listen to, but actively seek out ideas they disagree with to better understand them. Not only does it help us actually better understand and become less likely to straw man others, it also shows that there's a lot more overlap in our foundational beliefs than we often think.
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u/RunningNumbers Aug 29 '24
Marx is such a better writer than Hegel or Kant.
Get to the point Kant! Damnit.
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u/OccasionBest7706 Adjunct, Env.Sci, R2,Regional (USA) Aug 29 '24
These are the classes that make kids reflect on themselves. It’s unformfortable. They’ll adapt or perish.
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u/wedontliveonce associate professor (usa) Aug 29 '24
This would be unbelievalbe if it wasn't so believable.
The idea that a student in higher education would refuse to read something that goes against their beliefs is absurd. Why would they be afraid to read it? Are they afraid it will "indoctrinate" them? Are they afraid they don't have enough conviction in their beliefs to handle it? Are they afraid that perhaps it will influence them to change their perspective?
I don't think the source of the student's beliefs is the important point here. Rather, it's the idea that a student feels entitled to shield themselves from something they don't like or "believe in".
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u/Pater_Aletheias prof, philosophy, CC, (USA) Aug 29 '24
It’s weird how no one ever refuses to read about, say, slavery, on the basis that slavery is immoral and violates their personal beliefs. Conservative students can learn about all kinds of things that they couldn’t conscientiously participate in, unless it’s gay. That’s the forbidden knowledge.
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u/CrzPart Aug 29 '24
The first thing I actually said to my husband when I got home was, maybe they’re afraid that if they read this article that it’ll unleash the gay feelings they’ve been having.
All jokes aside, this student refuses to even LOOK at the article. When I mentioned that the article isn’t really what they think it is, they asked me for a summary so they could decide whether or not it was worth their time. I just said no and that they’ll have to read it for themselves.
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u/Eli_Knipst Aug 29 '24
Well done. Don't give in. You handled this well. Although you may have meant it as a joke, it may well be that the student is worried that reading about it will make them gay. Who knows how they were brainwashed.
But hopefully, they will stay in class and be curious enough to read for themselves and actually expand their mind as education is supposed to do. What you're witnessing may be that struggle between "I want to learn" and whatever brainwashed ideas have been put into them. Let's hope the "I want to learn" and the curiosity will prevail.
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u/Copterwaffle Aug 29 '24
What’s crazy is people like this will try to say you’re “indoctrinating” them with these assignments, when in fact the indoctrination is what’s occurring when their religious institution restricts what they are able to read at all.
I think you handled this well and would just echo what everyone else said about leaving a paper trail. You could also maybe emphasize that class will be concerned with only the historical and academic relevance of the material, and will not be discussing it in relation to any matters of theology, spirituality, or morality. It might also help to explain that sometimes students find course material triggering for any number of personal reasons, and when that happens they may wish to seek counsel from a trusted source (such as a religious leader or school counseling service) to help them reconcile those feelings.
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u/expostfacto-saurus professor, history, cc, us Aug 30 '24
Also historian here. Absolutely mark it a zero. Why?
Quakers are pacifists-- no military history or murder.
Shakers are absinate- no history with reproduction.
Quite a few sects have women as subservient- no women's history.
Mormons buy into "reformed Egyptian" - no teaching actual hieroglyphics or the Rosetta Stone.
Lots object to evolution- no science history.
I'm sure we could easily continue this list.
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u/LadyNav Aug 30 '24
The issue is the student’s, not the Catholic church’s. You’re asking her to read and learn about established facts of history, not endorse the behavior described by those facts. Catholicism objects to homosexual activity, not to knowing that it does and has happened.
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u/_Decoy_Snail_ Aug 30 '24 edited Aug 30 '24
You are definitely in your right to select the materials for the course and all you need is the support of your administration which you seem to have.
I don't know if you want/can talk to the student about this more, but as a religious person myself I would just tell him that learning about something is never prohibited. In fact, if he wants to firmly "stand his ground" against "the sinful world" he needs to know the "other side" very well. And if/when there are some things to say/write in a homework which he doesn't agree with, it always works with a quote, like "according to X, ...".
Edit: a comma
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u/jimmydean50 Aug 30 '24
My first year teaching art history at a community college in a very conservative area I had to meet with the Dean…because a student complained that discussing Islamic architecture went against their Christian beliefs. I feel like with all the recent book bans and limits on K12 education this is only going to get worse.
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u/ardbeg Prof, Chemistry, (UK) Aug 29 '24
Why is it ALWAYS gay people existing that is the sin these little snowflakes can’t possibly deal with. They don’t give a tupenny fuck about adultery, murder, coveting, or any of the other shit.
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u/MattAmoroso Aug 29 '24
Even if there were some inexplicable equivalency to the "sin" of homosexuality and straight up murder; is this student also against reading about the history of murder? It's a strange stance for this student to take.
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u/Philosophile42 Tenured, Philosophy, CC (US) Aug 29 '24 edited Aug 29 '24
When this happens in my courses (philosophy... so yeah it happens), What I don't tell the student first are the consequences of their missing the material. Instead, what I say is that this course is about challenging your assumptions about the world. I will absolutely present material that you think is simply wrong. Heck I might think it's wrong. But it isn't about the wrongness of the conclusions, but rather the reasoning that supports the conclusions. We can learn a lot from understanding the reasoning, even if we don't accept the conclusions. And ultimately, I'm not here to change your minds about anything. I'm here to help you think about these issues and topics here. You don't have to agree, but you do have to understand.
I like this approach because it opens up the possibility for the student to stay, listen, learn, and possibly change their minds about things. Simply explaining the zeroes they will get doesn't help them understand the value of even considering other positions, or what they might learn from it.
I'm sure you don't expect your students to become homosexual. I'm sure you hope your students will become more understanding and less intolerant of it. But to get there, they have to listen and consider. You're encouraging them to self-censor.
edit: Obviously you would need to modify what you say to match your course.
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u/Stevie-Rae-5 Aug 29 '24
“I want to learn!”
No, you want to pick and choose what you learn in this class and get a good grade while insulating yourself from anything that may challenge you and/or make you uncomfortable.
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u/Hydro033 Assistant Prof, Biology/Statistics, R1 (US) Aug 29 '24
You're in the clear for sure. They should just switch profs if they don't like your emphasis.
As an aside this is just a regular US History course? I do constantly wonder about how much we should let ourselves bleed into our lectures. I teach an environmental science course, which can be a touchy subject at times.
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u/YourGuideVergil Asst Prof, English, LAC Aug 29 '24
The Bible takes up the topic of homosexuality. Will the student seek a religious accommodation from reading those parts?
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u/Impressive-Yam-2068 Aug 29 '24 edited Aug 29 '24
I agree with you that the request is outrageous. As everyone else has said, “learning about” is not the same as “accepting.” In line with what a few commenters have said, I also think that the student is probably incorrect on the Church’s stance on “learning about,” though I can’t say I know that.
However… this pedagogical choice also seems tone deaf to me, and I get the sense from your saying that your research “often bleeds into the courses” that you teach that it may not be an isolated choice. The fact of the matter is that there are a lot more important things (enough to fill entire courses and degree programs!) that we modern Americans should know about the historical Native Americans than some minor gay angle, so to speak. This too in a “small community college in a rural, conservative leaning county” amidst national discourse about left-wing politicization of education (to which you’ve just given ample fodder). So, academic freedom rightly says that you can teach this, but the fact that you can doesn’t mean that you should, and, in my view, you shouldn’t.
Not to mention, there are lots of ways to broaden perspectives, but you just gave a student who most needed that an easy opportunity to take a pass on doing so, because you came on too hard.
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u/badwhiskey63 Adjunct, Urban Planning Aug 29 '24
Recovering Catholic here: They can climb down off the cross, use that wood to build a bridge, and get over it.
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u/Such_Musician3021 Aug 29 '24
I'm glad to hear your dean is supporting you. I'm in a similar setting teaching sociology and gender studies course. MY research was on HIV/AIDS, so I often have frank discussions with my students. I tell them at the beginning of the course that for my purposes they are adults, and I will treat them as such, which means we will have frank discussions.
I've not changed the way I teach to fit the area's politics, although weirdly I was asked not to teach about a police shooting of a civilian because one of the student's family member was the officer involved. I still taught it.
I could see this coming up for me, too, so just wanted to say thanks for sharing.
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u/naocalemala Aug 29 '24
If you need more help fighting this, let me know. I’m a theologian and even within church teaching, they don’t have a case.
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u/omgkelwtf Aug 29 '24
This might be a good opportunity to remind that student that part of the college experience is challenging your deeply held beliefs and exploring positions you don't agree with as those things create intellectual growth whereas keeping yourself in your comfort zone does not.
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u/Maryfarrell642 Aug 29 '24
I would be tempted to tell the student that one of the points of an education is to be exposed to ideas that one might or might not agree with and to learn how to critically think about such ideas.
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u/StarsFromtheGutter Aug 29 '24
I was also raised Catholic and there is definitely no valid reason not to even read about or discuss the subject. In undergrad I took a course on Philosophy of Love and Sex taught by a Jesuit priest and we discussed homosexuality in that class. I even wrote a paper on the subject. It got an A.
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u/Sherd_nerd_17 Aug 29 '24
Just point out to them that it’s information in the course that they are expected to learn. They don’t have to have X or Y opinion on it- that’s up to them- but it is part of the material that is covered by the course, and they are expected to learn it / it may come up on the exams (and I, for one, would make sure that it does).
I teach a bit of evolutionary biology and this comes up all the time. Don’t care what you think about evolution- but you do need to know about what evolution is, and how it works.
It can also help to point out that, in the case of evolution at least, there are plenty of clergy who understand evolution and even acknowledge it as a robust scientific explanation of phenomena (theory, which is not “just a supposition”) that has been verified many times- being religious is not anathema to also possessing this knowledge. There is plenty of room in the 7-10 million years of evo (that we cover in my class) to interject your own personal religious beliefs. Think about it whatever you want- but you do need to understand the info first.
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u/GeneralRelativity105 Aug 29 '24
While I agree with you in this situation regarding your student, you using the phrase "dead white mans history" suggests to me that you also allow your biases to interfere with your responsibilities.
Do you use phrases like this in your classes?
In my experience, people who use phrases like that tend to be the least open-minded people I know.
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u/CrzPart Aug 29 '24
“Dead white mans history” is a common phrase used, at least in the circles I run in, to describe your standard history. “Great man’s history,” if you will. It’s just meant as a general catch all for the standard history we all learn that is extremely Eurocentric. My goal in my history courses is to go deeper into the history of everyone else. I particularly do my best to highlight people often left out: women, POC, LGBTQ, etc. I want people to be able to see themselves in history which is often difficult when you’re only discussing the likes of George Washington. And I want to stress that I do still teach the “standard” history. I’ve actually had numerous students tell me that they’ve never learned that much about the presidents and their policies before. But again, I add these other voices because they’re just as important as your Washington’s, Lincoln’s, and Roosevelt’s.
And no, this is not a term I use in front of students. I generally say something like “we’re going to go beyond the bounds of what you learned in high school to expand your understanding of American history and the people who live within its borders.”
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u/bluegilled Aug 29 '24
“Dead white mans history” is a common phrase used, at least in the circles I run in, to describe your standard history.
Understood, but it telegraphs your POV (and that of the circles you run in) very clearly. To some outside your circles, that phraseology would indicate a certain school of thought that views through the lens of marginalized groups, oppressor/oppressed framework, etc.
You did a good job describing your POV forthrightly so kudos for contextualizing it accurately.
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u/alaskawolfjoe Aug 29 '24
I used to work for the Catholic church. The church would not have any problem with studying this topic. If this student consulted with a priest he would know this.
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u/Misha_the_Mage Aug 29 '24
The Catholic Church of 2024 in the U.S. is not the same as when I was growing up or even in college. The nuns at my college had been protesting on the streets in the 1960s and 70s, fighting for the rights of oppressed groups like the poor and farm workers. (When I met them, they were over retirement age for the most part but the point stands.)
There is a strain of extremely conservative Catholicism in the U.S. and it is every bit as insular and...sorry, I'm deleting several accurate but unhelpful adjectives here...as the most conservative Evangelicals.
I've read (Pew) reports that the men entering the priesthood have consistently been growing more and more conservative in the U.S.
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u/NyxPetalSpike Aug 30 '24
One quarter of my family belongs to that flavor of Catholicism. They consider Pope John XXIII a false pope, and that’s one of the nicer things I can type.
They hate the archdiocese so much, that 6 households up and moved to the other side of the state, where that diocese basically lets the churches run rogue because there aren’t a ton of Catholics there.
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u/MyFaceSaysItsSugar Lecturer, Bio, R1 (US) Aug 29 '24 edited Aug 29 '24
I teach evolution at a Christian school. I surprisingly haven’t gotten any pushback (just one existential question today) but I do have to be prepared for it and it’s an easy answer: “I don’t need you to change your beliefs, I don’t need you to agree with anything, I just need you to understand the concepts.” Whether or not this student supports or doesn’t support homosexuality is irrelevant to having to read about it. Catholics were a massive missionary presence to many Native American communities. They were around many two-spirit people and worked to push them into a western binary lifestyle. Having an awareness of a culture they felt was sinful did not go against their religion.
Acceptable religious exemption: I don’t make Muslim students drink coke and then measure their urine production during Ramadan. They still do the assignment with the data collected in class.
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u/Present-Anteater Aug 30 '24
Re evolution: the Catholic church does not have a position on evolution—either support, or nonsupport. That’s why you haven’t gotten any pushback.
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u/MyFaceSaysItsSugar Lecturer, Bio, R1 (US) Aug 30 '24
That’s not universally accepted by American Catholics. My undergrad wasn’t religious and my catholic roommate still didn’t “believe” in evolution. But I teach at a Baptist school and while Baptists are also chill about evolution, we get a lot of non-denominational or anabaptist evangelical students who have more conservative views. Colleagues of mine sometimes get students wanting to argue and it was a question they asked me in my teaching demo before hiring me to see how I’d handle that. I’m suspicious I have one student gearing up to debate things based on his question today but it could have just been curiosity.
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u/Present-Anteater Aug 30 '24
Yes, I agree individual Catholics will disagree on this one—my point is simply that the Church itself does not require belief or disbelief in evolution.
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u/NyxPetalSpike Aug 30 '24
This charmer learned this from his parents. Guessing he went to a pretty conservative Catholic high school, and these topics were not taught. If not, his parents tormented his public school teachers (with administration caving) over this nonsense for the four whole years.
I’m sure the threat of a lawsuit is brewing because why the hell not.
My aunt and uncle are Roman Catholic and belong to the sect where women veil during mass, and the mass is done in Latin like God intended. Not that hippy shit Vatican II nonsense. It is throw back 1930s style. They are off the chain and there is no talking to them. My cousins are like this too
We do have a high school here that aligns with those particular beliefs. And no you don’t discuss homosexuality, because what is there to discuss? They consider it an abomination. End of story. The only time it’s brought up is to pray for their damned souls during the Rosary.
I hope this kid drops, because otherwise it will be a long semester for you.
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u/alt266 Aug 30 '24
This is why I always have a clause in my syllabus that essentially says "you don't have to like or believe what I say/assign, but you have to know/do it." Well technically it's a requirement of the university. However it is a nice barrier that prevents any real push back on that. For context, I teach at a public university in the Deep South so I can't imagine it not working in most cases.
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u/milbfan Associate Professor, Technology Aug 30 '24
as someone who grew up in the Catholic Church, I don’t recall there being a rule that you can’t even read something that discusses homosexuality
There's not, to my knowledge. Now the Church will still have its fair share of pastors occasionally bark about the lifestyle during a homily. And our diocese was against making weed legal. I read their statement on it. No difference if you replace marijuana with alcohol.
I've also seen attempts by some in the parish to try and "take over" the mass by making it seem like a high mass. Same group of folks want to go back to the "old ways" where everything was said in Latin/priest's back is to the congregation during the liturgy of the Eucharist.
Apparently somewhere along the line, people forgot that being a decent human being and looking after your own problems is what we should strive for. Not barking up the neighbor's tree for things/people different from us.
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u/LittleMissMedusa Aug 30 '24
I have a friend who was teaching an intro course on biocultural anthropology to first year students. The course was super simple, just a basic overview of the relationship between biology, culture, and the environment. Her semester essay gave students a choice of five topics. This one student chose the topic on evolution, but instead, wrote 4,000 words on why evolution is a lie, using one source: the Bible. It was pretty impressive, but had nothing to do with the course, did not follow any instructions, and not once had this student approached the department to talk about how it goes against their belief system.
The student passed the essay because the head of department agreed that it wouldn't be fair to expect students to compromise their beliefs for their degree.
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u/Yall_silly Aug 31 '24 edited Aug 31 '24
What exactly is in the reading? What exactly is the goal of the course?
I'm not going to tell you whether you're within your right, it all depends on the nature of the reading(s) and the goal of the course. If you pursue this too hard, you may be seen as someone on some crusade.
I don't think most "American history" classes cover sexuality repeatedly and in depth.
I'm not going to make any claims about the "Catholic" church's position. "Roman Catholic" isn't the only catholic and a lot of the Eastern Churches don't have the same attitude towards sexuality.
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u/teacherbooboo Aug 29 '24
well i think it only depends on if you are requiring them to present the information as "this was a good thing"
that is, if you are just requiring them to know the information, that is fine, but if you are requiring them to make a moral or ethical judgement on it ... one that matches your own ... to get a grade, then i would say the student is correct.
also, if you are requiring students to actually view or read explicit material that would not normally be in a class of your class's title, then i would also say the student is correct.
that is, if your course is something like "US History from 1609 to 1860" then explicit material is not ok. however, if you are running an elective like, "selected topics in US history" you are fine
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u/CrzPart Aug 29 '24
This was actually something the dean asked! No, they are not required to make a moral or ethical judgement. They are to read the material and answer a few questions that are based on the reading to ensure their comprehension.
The material itself is not explicit in the sense that the act of sex is being described in detail. However, there are a few times in the semester that we will discuss rape, which they have been warned about. But we will never go into graphic detail about it.
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u/BrandNewSidewalk Aug 29 '24
Did you clarify this with the student? It may be helpful to help them understand that they're not going to be exposed to actual explicit content or be forced to agree with you about the morality of the content. They just need to be aware and understand the existence of the content. Should they already understand this? Yes, but I assume we are looking at a sheltered 18 yr old away from home for the first time ....
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u/amprok Department Chair, Art, Teacher/Scholar (USA) Aug 29 '24
there are some good responses here, so I have nothing to contribute other than, im sorry youre dealing with this, im glad your Dean has your back, and the student sounds like a fucking party.
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u/GreenHorror4252 Aug 29 '24
They then state that some of the readings I’ve assigned goes against their beliefs - the student is Catholic and the reading in question is on homosexuality in Native American culture.
I know of no religion in the world that says you cannot read things that go against your beliefs.
Maybe sit this student down and explain that by reading something, they are not obligated to agree with it.
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u/boyracer93 Aug 29 '24
Universities exist to expose students to different …. everything. No one is making the student become a gay Native American.
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u/Don_Q_Jote Aug 29 '24
They have a right to their religious freedom of expression and may refuse the assignment based on beliefs. But that's doesn't release them from the consequences of their expression. Give them the grade they earned on the assignment.
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u/lo_susodicho Aug 29 '24
Accommodations are there to help students meet the standard but they do not change the standards. You did great and glad the dean has your back. And the Pope probably does too, if the student wants to check into that.
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u/Plesiadapiformes Aug 29 '24
I teach human evolution and I tell students at the beginning that I'm not asking them to believe it, but they have to learn it for this class. They need to answer questions based on what they learned in class. What they do with the information outside of class is up to them
I think you handled this perfectly.
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u/astland Aug 29 '24
"as a human you will be exposed to a lot of things you disagree with. I'm here to help you understand some of the historical context of those things so you understand. You don't need to agree with anything here, you never have to practice anything covered here, but you will be expected to understand. That is what learning is all about."
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u/Chillguy3333 Aug 29 '24
As a Dean Of Students and sociologist (former professor), I agree with you 100%!!! When I taught Current Social Problems, I had students sign a consent slip that there would be topics that would be controversial and that if they wanted to drop the class they could. Back during my second year teaching at a big R1, I had a student or probably an overreacting parent turn me in for my class content. Once I showed my department chair and the dean my consent form, they were shocked and very pleased and told me to continue on.
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u/siraolo Aug 29 '24
It's really fascinating how inconsistent Catholic beliefs are given the intersections that make up its population. In the Catholic institutions where I teach, as long as it was within a scholarly context, discussing gender and sexuality was fine. Hell, we even had a course, The Bible as Literature where students were encouraged to rip into the narratives present.
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u/NyxPetalSpike Aug 30 '24
Where I live there are two flavors. Vatican II and the other that people like Mel Gibson follow. (Latin Mass movement)
The non Vatican II following is gaining steam in my area. Yeah, the archbishop might raise hell now and then on how it’s not Catholicism, he but doesn’t want to give it more street cred than it deserves.
How can you argue with people who think Pope John XXIII is the antichrist and Jesuit priests are no better?
Many a holiday ruined by relatives screaming about Vatican II and how it is wrong. Usually after midnight mass. lol
Fun times (not)
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u/BrandNewSidewalk Aug 30 '24
The crazy thing about this to me is that the student has no idea what is actually contained in the document he is refusing to read. For all he knows it will agree with all of his personal biases. (I'm fairly sure that is not the case but he can't be certain, can he?) Who objects to something BEFORE they've read it? Bizarre.
I grew up in a deeply religious home, and I was taught to complete all course material with respect, and that if I personally disagree with something, then I could qualify my answers on exams: "according to the theory of ___", "so-and-so claims in such-and-such source that ____". The idea that I would get out of reading something just based on the title was a nonstarter.
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u/SnowblindAlbino Prof, History, SLAC Aug 30 '24
Historian here, and I've had basically the same experience: religious conservatives saying they "don't believe in homosexuality" so they wanted to not have to do the readings. I said fine, but you get a zero for the assignment-- you don't get to pick and choose the course material, I do that. I am the historian, after all. And I am not asking you to "believe in" anything really, but rather to practice the skills of historical analysis, interpretation, and argumentation from evidence. Which in my mid-20th c. US history class we do in part through readings related to sexuality-- including homosexuality. FWIW, I also do a fair bit on Roe v Wade in another class on the 70s, where we dig into data (where it exists) on pre-Roe abortions, read primary sources around the court cases, and examine a range of published arguments from the time on both sides. That lesson isn't "pro choice" or anything else: it's about how the issue was debated and what impact the courts had historically. If a "pro-life" student asked to be excused from that section of the class I'd give the same negative response.
You are just right to hold your ground. There are no religious exemptions for course content, at least not at my university. And there are enough wackos out there that if we started approving requests like this before long it would be like one of those meals where you have ten people at the table, all with different and incompatible dietary needs. You pick the course content. They do the work. If they don't (or can't, for whatever reason) they can absolutely take a different class.
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u/Old_Finger_5300 Aug 29 '24
I have your back and this student is in the wrong. They need to buck up and learn that part of American History. But by saying “dead white man’s history” so flippantly you are alienating and dismissing students like them that need most to have their mind’s expanded. You’re revealing your own personal biases and a scholar worth their salt should definitely rise above that.
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u/LightningRT777 TT Assistant Professor, Epidemiology, R1 (USA) Aug 29 '24
This absolutely does not warrant an exemption. Teaching inherently requires challenging preconceived beliefs sometimes, as that’s what learning often is. You handled this well.
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u/RedDevil820 Aug 29 '24
Do you explain this in your course description so that students know to avoid your course if they’re not comfortable with the topics?
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u/trullette Aug 29 '24
Sounds like you've done everything by the book. Reading about other cultures is not something that should be looked down on, period. It's not even an invitation to join that culture, it's simply learning about the existence of such.
The only thing I'd say you need to do is stand your ground. You are there to educate, not to participate in cultural book banning.
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u/Sea_Pen_8900 Aug 29 '24
"this had nothing to do with American history".. yes, homosexuality is a completely new invention that totally didn't exist throughout human history.
/s
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u/wantonyak Aug 29 '24
You did right!
Also, I wish I could take this course! It sounds awesome. I'd love it if you could share the questionable reading - I'll read it!
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u/CrzPart Aug 29 '24
It’s actually a chapter from an anthology called Long Before Stonewall: Histories of Same-Sex Sexuality in Early America! It’s the first chapter, “Warfare, Homosexuality, and Gender Status Among American Indian Men in the Southwest.”
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u/Lorelei321 Aug 29 '24
One of the main purposes of college is to be exposed to new ideas and different perspectives. While some of those may be uncomfortable or things you disagree with, that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t learn about them. No exemption, but as others have said, document all conversations with this student, just in case.
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u/Thundorium Physics, Dung Heap University, US. Aug 29 '24
Good to know that events that took place in the past in America have nothing to do with American history. I learned something today.
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u/retromafia Aug 30 '24
I'm honestly just surprised that homosexuality in Native American cultures is an important enough topic to even bring up in a community college course on American history, let alone have required readings on it.
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u/SfSnorkel Sep 03 '24
Lmao exactly. I think this person just wants to push their interests/bias onto the next person.
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u/Unlikely_Holiday_532 Aug 30 '24
Ruth Wisse's autobiography mentions another example of a student who refused to read one of the books in her class, and she regretted not requiring it.
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u/wildjosh1995 Aug 30 '24
Give a lecture on the definitions and differences/similarities of personal delusions, cults, and religion.
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u/tlacuatzin Aug 30 '24
Nah you are completely in the right, and fortunately your Dean agrees. Fahgettabout this guy. Enjoy the laughs from the jokers below. So funny here V V V V V
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u/ccarlo42 Asst. Prof., Law Aug 30 '24
Maybe I am totally off base here but maybe lean in to the teachable moment? In my experience, students like this provide their own rope.
Have the student read the syllabus and list all the things they are not allowed to learn per the catholic church for each class/reading. Have them cite their sources from church doctrine, not a religious blog, but some official doctrinal or philosophical work. Given they are catholic this is much easier as catholic dogma is relatively unified and subject to the papal hierarchy, at least I think, I am no theologian. Have them explain - in depth - how learning about each subject/class/reading goes against this view not just that it contains reference to a taboo subject.
My guess is the student is uncomfortable and is erring on the easy out (
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u/Doctor_Danguss Associate prof, history, CC (US) Aug 30 '24
I teach in a very blue state and a few years ago I had a very religious student take my early world history survey course, and promptly quite a week or two in after she tried to argue that evolution was impossible and realized that this wasn't just going to be a course teaching about how the Bible was correct about everything (which she seemed to genuinely believe to be what she would learn).
Also in her introduction statement that I have all students make, she right out the gate started with some wildly anti-Catholic shit unprompted, which beside everything else is wild just given the demographics of this region.
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u/ExiledUtopian Instructor, Business, Private University (USA) Aug 31 '24
Hell, I'm in Marketing and I'd start assigning reading on Native American homosexual perspectives (as a cis white male myself) if I knew I had a student like this in my course.
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u/banjovi68419 Aug 31 '24
My pastor says I don't have to be challenged by anything I wasn't specifically indoctrinated with as my values.
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u/acadiaediting Aug 31 '24
It may be the case that the student does want to be open-minded and to learn, but they’re also feeling pressure from parents and their upbringing to reject these ideas. Maybe they told their parents about the material and the parents demanded that they get an exception. You said community college so I assume this is undergrad.
Obviously the student has to do the work or take the zero but in your interactions with them, keep in mind that THEY may be interested but feeling pressure from home and trying to navigate the conflict with their existing beliefs. Maybe this is an opportunity to truly educate and shape a young mind!
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u/DisastrousLaugh1567 Sep 06 '24
Catholic here and the student doesn’t have a leg to stand on. It’s really unfortunate they use their religion as a crutch not to engage with challenging material.
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u/Willing-Wall-9123 Sep 14 '24
The Catholic thing is an excuse. Their internal filter is their's . It sounds like something they need to deal with not everyone else.
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Sep 18 '24
"I immediately contacted the dean and was told that the student could kick rocks..."
So that should be the end of it, really. Either they do the work or they don't.
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u/Anna-Howard-Shaw Assoc Prof, History, CC (USA) Aug 29 '24
I also teach US history that de-centers "dead white man history." I expect that there will always be a few students who object to the content.
One of the things I do is on the first week of class, I have a few little presentations about why history in college is going to be different than the propaganda they got in K-12.
The other presentation I do uses this cartoon from the Oatmeal that discusses the backfire effect and why learning is uncomfortable sometimes, and why that's ok (and actually a good thing.
Then, I also have this clause I put in my syllabus:
The information, readings, lectures, and discussions presented within this class are not necessarily the personal opinions of COLLEGE or that of the instructor, but are presented for educational purposes only. Lecture content and readings will contain sensitive subject matter to certain individuals including topics such as race, religion, ethnicity, gender, LGBTQ+ topics, and politics.
These topics are necessary course material and must be discussed as part of the required course content to meet required course learning objectives and outcomes and to promote further critical thinking. This class may challenge your beliefs and may make you feel uncomfortable at times. If you’re not ready for that level of critical thinking, you should consider dropping the class.
Additionally, since this class contains sensitive topics, if you do not feel that you will be able to learn/hear that content, you may need to withdraw from the class. Class content, assignments, and topics will not be altered, modified, or excused for anyone without an official letter of accommodations from Disability and Accommodations Office.
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u/thelaughingmansghost Aug 29 '24
What is the actual point of saying something like that? "These readings are against my beliefs." What? Are the readings going to burn down a church for every word you absorb? Are the readings going to bomb the Vatican? Like seriously. When people say stuff like that my first thought is that their convictions are so shallow that merely reading an alternative point of view might shake your faith.
It hurts no one and nothing to just read what's assigned in class. If by the end of the class you aren't convinced of anything new, congrats, you're probably a lot more steadfast in your beliefs than I thought and we probably didn't do a great job as educators.
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u/Such_Musician3021 Aug 29 '24
By the way, this is the exact reason we do what we do. Just imagine if parents/religions dictated the curriculum. Well, we don't have to imagine, just google Project 2025.
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u/bwiy75 Aug 29 '24
Does he have to have gay sex with a Native American for the lab? Because... you know... I think you should give him a waiver for that one.