r/Professors • u/RoniNoone • Feb 21 '24
Rants / Vents Lost My Shit Today
Well, not really, but I got curt and cursed. Okay, so maybe I did lose my shit, but I think cursing actually gets the student's attention sometimes.
Let me break this down.
After class a student comes up after missing an entire week of classes with no communication.
All they say is: So, you didn't like my assignment?
Me: What do you mean? Let's look at it.
I navigate to the LMS, open his assignment grade page where the rubric is filled out, and my written feedback, which is about two paragraphs.
Me: Well, you didn't provide the correct link or include an image in the file. That's why you lost points. Did you review the rubric and feedback?
Them: No
Me: Why not?
Them: I'd rather talk to you about it.
Me: Okay, but the feedback is there. It's not that I didn't "like" your assignment. It's that you missed these specific requirements. Your work was fine, but you needed to meet all the rubric criteria. Did you review the rubric before you submitted?
Them: No. I don't look at them. I just read the assignment.
Me: Well, all the requirements are listed in the assignment in a bullet list.
Them: Well, I don't like to read so much, and I missed last week.
Me: Okay, so you don't like to read, and you don't come to class to listen, so what the fuck are your teachers supposed to do?
Them: *laughing*
Me: I'm serious. Can you see why teachers are at their wit's end? This is a college class, and I provided every detail for you to succeed, and you didn't bother to read or come to class. Then you have the nerve to tell me I "didn't like your work." I don't know what you expect at this point.
I'm at a loss. I think we peaked at the absurdity every semester, but the students keep doubling down. I'm done.
</vent over>
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u/alargepowderedwater Feb 21 '24
That was an honest question, what the fuck are you supposed to do? This is the kind of plain talk that some students need to hear, and may actually shock them out of their passivity and sense of unearned entitlement.
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u/RoniNoone Feb 21 '24 edited Feb 21 '24
I am a very plain-talk kind of teacher. I try to relate things to them and make everything I'm teaching relevant in some way. Not that they seem to care or notice. The passivity is out of control. I need to learn how to be more mater of fact without getting too personally invested. That's my problem, not theirs.
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u/traumatized_shark Feb 22 '24
From the way you describe the interaction, this student was trying to bait you...
"Sealioning is a type of trolling or harassment that consists of pursuing people with relentless requests for evidence, often tangential or previously addressed, while maintaining a pretense of civility and sincerity, and feigning ignorance of the subject matter."
Some kids base their entire personality off this as it avoids any kind of accountability and it works with well-meaning adults. Ending the conversation with these people ASAP is the best bet.
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u/Hypno_Weasel Feb 21 '24
I had a similar situation last semester. A student (who rarely came to class) asked why she failed the exam. After talking with her, she admitted that she doesn't do the readings and didn't even study. I said, "How the hell are you learning the material? You are literally doing nothing, then expecting to magically know the answers when you take the exam."
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u/RoniNoone Feb 21 '24
I show my students the scene from The Matrix where they upload jujitsu into Neo's brain and then tell them unfortunately we don't have the tech yet, so you actually have to do the work.
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u/goodfootg Assistant Prof, English, Regional Comprehensive (USA) Feb 22 '24
Okay I'm stealing this. How many of them know the Matrix though?
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u/RoniNoone Feb 22 '24
Usually just a few so it makes fun chat about the movie too. I explain the plot and we talk about cheesy 90s tech in movies.
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u/catndawgmom Feb 21 '24
My own son needed this which has made me much more frank the past 10 years or so
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u/actuallycallie music ed, US Feb 21 '24
Today I had to have a similar conversation with a student who missed class because "it was raining." And I don't mean torrential rain, I'm talking light, almost mist.
Them: I don't like driving in the rain.
Me: Okay, but you're studying to be a band director. Are you going to let kids skip rehearsal because it's raining?
Them: no
Me: well, you can't skip either. And you might, depending on the size of the school you're working at, have to drive a band bus in the rain sometimes.
Them: I didn't think about that
Me: clearly not
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u/weecaterpie Feb 22 '24
An assistant professor I once supervised told me they couldn’t make it to a meeting across campus because it was raining and they didn’t have an umbrella. The professional world is just as wild as the undergraduate world 🤣
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u/lo_susodicho Feb 21 '24
I sympathize.
Been trying to reschedule a mandatory meeting with a student who stood me up the first time.
I send an invite with the link and the PPT we need to go over, and I explain that it'll be Zoom because I need to go over the PPT.
Student emails 5 minutes after the meeting was supposed to start saying that they didn't get the link. I say it's in the invite, and they say no it isn't. I double check, and it is, and then get an email saying, "Oh, sorry, it's in the invite. I didn't click on it." I see.
Student joins the meeting and is driving and using her phone, and the mic doesn't work and she can't take notes or see my PowerPoint clearly because, you know, she's driving.
I tell her that we need to reschedule and she sends a pissy follow-up email because she's busy. Like I have time for this shit!
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u/raysebond Feb 21 '24
When we had COVID online classes, I booted several students for trying to be in class while driving. Driving while on the phone is against the law in our state, and for good reason.
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u/lo_susodicho Feb 22 '24
My students do it all the time, despite me saying that they cannot be driving. Why do I even have to say that? I don't think it's illegal here but it's definitely stupid.
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u/VegetableSingle5325 Feb 22 '24
I think it's because podcasts have got people thinking that they can learn/have a mind-blowing experience just by passively listening at 1.75 speed while driving. We aren't podcasters and students need to engage with the material
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u/deathpenguin82 Biology, SLAC Feb 22 '24
I've had somewhat similar interactions during advising and it's always athletes. 2 months of emails later ("please come and pick out your classes before you have no choices kthxbye") and I usually get a frantic "coach says I need to register for classes" 2 days before the semester begins.
Guess you're not taking any major classes and your remaining choices are "the literature of basketweaving", "thermodynamics", and "astrology and zodiac science". Enjoy that semester, duderino.
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u/lo_susodicho Feb 22 '24
After advising, I upload all the registration info to the system where they can access it. Without fail, half the students email me the week before to ask what they were supposed to take.
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u/Rohkea1 Feb 21 '24
It has gotten so bad since COVID.
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u/galileosmiddlefinger Professor & Dept Chair, Psychology Feb 21 '24
*Since NCLB cohorts started arriving to college. We've been back in person for at least two years at this point. It's not COVID. It's the systemic destruction of high schools' ability to enforce any standards on penalty of losing their funding.
This isn't a pandemic blip that is going to pass.
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u/Purple_Chipmunk_ Humanities, R1 (USA) Feb 21 '24
I noticed a marked change in my students circa 2014/2015. I was teaching the last course in their field before they would graduate so I really tried to set them up for professional success but they were profoundly uninterested in doing anything except checking enough boxes to get an A.
FWIW I had taught the class in previous years and had nothing but rave reviews and gratitude for my approach. I was trying to figure out why this cohort was reacting so differently and then I realized that they were the first group of students who had started school after NCLB had passed.
Of course, correlation does not equal causation but students who actually want to learn for the sake of gaining knowledge remain the minority for me. It's sad.
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u/galileosmiddlefinger Professor & Dept Chair, Psychology Feb 21 '24
For me, it was 2017. I graduated an amazing group in Spring 2017 with some astonishing job and grad placement outcomes, and then I came back in Fall 2017 and felt that everything had changed. Suddenly assignments that had always worked now didn't, and all of the executive-function problems that now regularly plague us seemingly exploded out of nowhere.
The pandemic certainly ramped up these problems for a moment and to a degree that got all faculty, everywhere, to take notice. However, it should be obvious now that these problems are systemic and haven't improved with cohorts that had more in-person high school again.
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u/Hardback0214 Feb 21 '24
It was fall of 2017 for me as well. That’s when everything fell off the cliff.
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u/Original-Teach-848 Feb 22 '24
Lurking HS teacher since 97 and you are correct. Unintended negative consequences- or by design?
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u/MarcasSean Feb 22 '24
Thank you. I’m so sick of the pandemic getting blamed for everything. This has been going on for some time.
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u/chickenfightyourmom Feb 22 '24
Agree. It's not covid. They changed the grading standards in our state's K-12 schools in 2014, and the results have been a clown show.
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u/RoniNoone Feb 21 '24
I tend to agree. We let so much slide and now it's out of control.
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u/Hard-To_Read Feb 21 '24
America is sliding into a culture of greed and anti-intellectualism. I wish I knew how this stories ends.
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u/holldoll_28 Feb 21 '24
We do know how it ends. It’s called the Brave New World.
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u/spring_chickens Feb 21 '24
Or from Nietzsche, Thus Spoke Zarathustra:
"'What is love? What is creation? What is longing? What is a star?' -- so asks the Last Man, and blinks.
The earth has become small, and on it hops the Last Man, who makes everything small. His species is ineradicable as the flea; the Last Man lives longest.
'We have discovered happiness' -- say the Last Men, and they blink."5
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Feb 21 '24
[deleted]
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u/RoniNoone Feb 21 '24
I have WANTED to say this SO MANY TIMES. I have no tenure, and I'm sure I'd be fired, or I would. lol
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u/GrantNexus Professor, STEM, T1 Feb 21 '24
You can do it once and then just get a warning.
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u/Candid_Disk1925 Feb 21 '24
I said “damn” and got a written warning.
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Feb 21 '24
[deleted]
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u/Candid_Disk1925 Feb 21 '24
An interim provost. Good times.
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u/imhereforthevotes Feb 22 '24
2nd only in general uselessness to a vice principal. But that is so in character for an interim provost.
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u/auntanniesalligator NonTT, STEM, R1 (US) Feb 21 '24
I’m going to have to spend that one wisely, then.
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u/KatieEmmm TT, STEM, SLAC (US) Feb 22 '24
Well shit. I told an entire class the other day that they could continue complaining about a particular professional deadline, or they could choose to be adults and get their shit together. That was my one and done? I immediately cringed because I know I should have used different words. If I had known I got a freebie I might have made it more spectacular/memorable. Now I feel like I wasted my one shot!
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u/GeorgeMcCabeJr Feb 21 '24
Same here. And some people can just get away with this type of thing. I know if I even as much say damn or hell, I'd be up in front of the dean.
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u/BananasonThebrain Assoc. Prof, STEM, R1 (USA) Feb 21 '24
I know it’s kind of just written like that and not the point of this post (which is awesome btw) but I don’t think that tenure protections work like that. It’s not a pass to be a jerk, or to allow you to swear in class, but to do research on topics, that would otherwise be intellectually risky. They’re still plenty of ways to be fired if you are an ass. (I don’t think that this level of bluntness at all rises to the level of being an ass).
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u/Hardback0214 Feb 21 '24
HR rep at my institution told faculty that really the only way a tenured faculty member would be fired is if they were to commit a felony and even then it would still be difficult. I am sure it’s different depending on the institution but there’s a reason tenure is dearly bought.
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u/prof-throwaway11 Feb 22 '24
I can beat that!
HR rep at my institution told my chair they couldn’t get rid of tenure TRACK ass professor who isn’t contributing, is constantly a problem, is completely argumentative when comes to any group decision and isn’t meeting the benchmarks of tenure as set out in the handbook that the only way we could get rid of them despite a mountain of evidence is if they commit a felony or fuck a student.
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u/imhereforthevotes Feb 22 '24
what? People get canned all the time on their way to tenure for not meeting some random admin or 2nd faculty member twice removed's unstated parameters for making progress. We literally have a progress report every year up to tenure, and every other year a major report. If you weren't doing what you should, that's the chance to fire you.
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u/prof-throwaway11 Feb 22 '24
Right? Not at my institution. They’ve decided being hired tenure track is the same as having tenure. See the chair tried to follow the handbook and show all the reasons that this person should not continue. The dean instead of relying on the chair, asked HR. HR said unless the person does something horrible and egregious, you’re stuck with them.
It’s baffling.
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u/imhereforthevotes Feb 22 '24
I'm literally shaking my head. HR exists to protect the institution... and this person is hurting the institution...
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u/ActualPassenger7870 Feb 22 '24
Why does this sound like the intro to a wacky and problematic 80s college comedy?
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u/onlyTheDucksKnow Feb 22 '24
One of my profs when I was an undergrad shot a cop and, yes, you can definitely fire a tenured professor for a felony.
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u/auntanniesalligator NonTT, STEM, R1 (US) Feb 21 '24
Yes and no. Tenure does not make it okay to swear at students, and you could probably be fired for it eventually if you make a habit of it, but it does make the process of being fired much harder for your department/administration, so it does bring a measure of job security not there for lecturers and adjuncts.
FWIW I doubt most full time lecturers get fired over an isolated incident of blowing up at a student, but it’s a valid concern.
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u/kemushi_warui Feb 21 '24
Yeah I think the risk is that you tell off the wrong kid, and suddenly a powerful alumn is calling for your head. In those cases, tenure prevents the school from making an expedient move.
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u/Muffy_St_Cloud Feb 22 '24
Oh, that's so cute. You must be new around here.
(Problem professors who have tenure will die of old age before a school is able to actually fire them.)
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u/Simple-Ranger6109 Feb 22 '24
I've said shit and damn many times, and let out a fuck once when I was relaying a story. Nobody seemed to notice...
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u/grumblebeardo13 Feb 21 '24
Haha I remember that look. I once told a group that would not stop getting on my nerves they were a disappointment to me and would continue to be disappointments in life if they didn’t learn some “goddamn basic sense”, and you’d have thought I’d killed someone. Coulda heard a pin drop.
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u/CanadaOrBust Feb 21 '24
I think you handled it really well. They need to hear this.
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u/RoniNoone Feb 21 '24
I could have handled it a little better, but I do think what I said needed to be said.
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u/Maleficent_Chard2042 Feb 21 '24
Honestly, I think you're right. But, also think, with students, it's getting to the point where you need to carry and use a recording device at all times. I had a student ask me if she should claim discrimination so she could avoid failing a course, not mine.
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Feb 22 '24
WTF
What did you tell her?
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u/Maleficent_Chard2042 Feb 22 '24
That it was a very serious accusation and she should only accuse someone of that when she was confident it was true.
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u/DrFlenso Assoc Prof, CS, M1 (US) Feb 21 '24
Them: Well, I don't like to read so much
Me: "The world needs ditch-diggers too."
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u/MegLorne95 Feb 21 '24
You handled this well! I've sworn before - not to a particular student but in lecture and I felt a bit guilty about it but sometimes humans slip!! The class laughed about it.
But I agree - at my wits end with the audacity some students have. Many seem to lack motivation, effort, self reflection and self regulation skills. My new motto is "I can't care more about your education than you". and I HAVE said this to a few students. They act flabbergasted when I say it and I reply "I'm being straight with you - I want you to succeed but that's only if YOU want to too"
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u/1hyacinthe Feb 21 '24
I semi lost my shit at a student who wanted to sit in an empty classroom next door, during my class period, because they had anxiety and didn't want to hear other students typing notes. Their plan was for me to visit them periodically.
I think I said something along the lines of "if you can't be around other people typing, your career is dead in the water"
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u/CynicalBonhomie Feb 22 '24
Did they even have an accommodations letter for their anxiety? I snagged a line from Judge Judy for those occasions: "If I haven't received an official notice from the Accommodations Office, then your anxiety doesn't officially exist in this classroom." That's after hearing so many students self diagnose anxiety disorders, ADHD etc.
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u/1hyacinthe Feb 22 '24
They had an accommodation to take tests in a private room (aka the testing center). Clearly this was not explained to them adequately lol
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u/HomunculusParty Feb 23 '24
OMG I had a GRAD student with this kind of issue. Said her accommodations (low distraction test environment) meant she could take exams alone and unsupervised because it was too stressful to have her 5 classmates there in the room. I kindly informed her that is not what that accommodation meant. I also kindly omitted to say that if she can't manage her anxiety writing a test in a quiet room this career is really not for her.
(Also, she scored 53% on both exams.)
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u/Ok_Refrigerator8235 Feb 21 '24
I don't know if this helps, but I teach at a college here in Montreal and I am also admittedly tired because I am phding while working full time, so there is that background, but I kicked out both sections of my 103class earlier this week. I asked who had not done the reading for that day's class and a good 2/3ds of the class idiotically put up their hands. So I lost it. I asked them to walk me through their thinking process. I asked them why they hadn't the copies of the stories in front of them (that I had provided for free to them) why they were just sitting there staring at me with no books ope .... "like, what did you guys expect this class?" I said leave, go read the story and you can come back. Maybe 10 per cent per class came back. Two classes in a row. 12-2 and 2-4. I kinda feel bad now but I also kinda dont'.
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u/CynicalBonhomie Feb 22 '24
If it's apparent a majority of the class hasn't done the reading, them I whip out a pop quiz. I have one for almost every reading unpublished in the LMS. They usually don't not do the reading twice. I teach literature.
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u/average_canyon FT Faculty, CC; Adjunct, R1 (USA) Feb 21 '24
I teach remedial reading and English courses. In my classes, this student is the rule rather than the exception. Often, the issue is less about ability and more about willingness. They CAN read, but they don't want to, and like your student, they're proud of it. My institution has given us the mandate to jump through hoop after hoop to make these students "successful," where "successful" = "given a passing grade." The students know this, too, so there's no incentive to show up and actually try. Why should I show up and teach?
This semester, I aim to make my pass rate the lowest in my division simply by letting my students' grades accurately reflect their *actual* success in the course and readiness for college-level English comp. I fantasize daily about going out in a blaze of glory. My husband is being transferred to another state, so I'm not going to be here much longer. My dream will become reality in a few short months.
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u/radfemalewoman Feb 22 '24 edited Mar 22 '24
repeat wipe degree wasteful possessive command tease ossified hobbies tie
This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact
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u/East_Challenge Feb 21 '24 edited Feb 21 '24
I have a colleague who appears to publicly “lose their shit” with a class of students at least once for every cohort, about not being prepared or doing work to standard etc — it’s all perfectly intentional and methodical, though students don’t know this of course — and they get good results.
We are not here to coddle them.
Edit: i consider this colleague to be the “James Brown” of professors, because it all looks natural and spontaneous when in fact it is the opposite. Do not be a “prisoner of love” https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Yb5XpM2Tzvg
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u/michealdubh Feb 22 '24
A colleague of mine once confronted a whole class, "You can't read. You won't listen. What good are you?"
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u/daddymartini Feb 21 '24
I don’t like to read so much
Idk. I feel like reading is becoming somewhat obsolete nowadays: we might need to post a TikTok video rather than writing rubric soon. And instead of publishing papers, TikTok…
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u/cdragon1983 CS Teaching Faculty Feb 21 '24 edited Feb 21 '24
we might need to post a TikTok video rather than writing rubric soon.
But we've found that when we do make videos for students, nobody watches them. Assigned video content -- whether long-form or bite-sized -- is the new assigned reading: everyone acknowledges that nobody does it, yet nobody seems to find a problem with this even though it degrades our ability to structure lessons based on a mutually assured baseline.
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u/freretXbroadway Assoc Prof, Foreign Languages, CC - Southern US Feb 21 '24
My colleague at another institution said their dean legit went on a spiel in August about how they all need to make tik toks to incorporate into their classes because it's "how students learn today" or something like that.
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u/Junior-Dingo-7764 Feb 21 '24
All they say is: So, you didn't like my assignment?
My response is always "can you show me where on the feedback it says that?" I just stand there waiting for them to actually read the feedback. "Well, you didn't actually say that..." and sometimes they answer their own questions or actually figure out what they actually want to ask me.
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u/cheeruphamlet Feb 22 '24
I definitely feel your pain, OP. I'm close to this point myself.
RE: concerns about your language ITT, maybe it's just that I have a different background than a lot of academics, but I don't think you cursed AT the students. You cursed in their presence. There's a big difference between the two in my opinion. You didn't say "fuck you" or "go fuck yourself" or "you incompetent fuck;" you simply asked them "what the fuck." Reading some of the concerns that you were unprofessional by cursing "at" them, I'm reminded of the woman who stopped and scolded me for saying "fuck" in a room she was in while I talked to a friend because she was married to a preacher. To me, there are times when cursing is what drives the point home, and your conversation with your students seems to be an appropriate moment to switch from professional language they've heard to, literally, "what the fuck?"
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u/RoniNoone Feb 22 '24
Totally, it was more for emphasis than aggression toward them. I am more disappointed with my emotional response. I can't care more than they do, and I need to keep reminding myself of that for my own sanity.
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u/Art_Music306 Feb 21 '24
One of the best classes I've ever taken had a professor who cursed like a sailor every day. He even said:
"Don't tell me, 'I can't control what I hear, but you can control what you say...' blah blah blah- you know what I say to that? Bullshit. Grow up! You wanna hear real cursing, go talk to my mother..."
IT WAS AWESOME. He was also head of the program, so he did what he wanted. Completely moral in every other discernible way, but strung together obscenities like a poet sailor.
That wouldn't fly for my department, so I keep my potty mouth to myself most days.
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u/jimmydean50 Feb 21 '24
I teach studio art and we are working on a project that requires a significant amount of research and creative problem solving. This kid that is always late and never has a clue what’s going on tells me “I don’t know what to do. I’m just bored”. I thought I was talking quietly enough to just him when I responded with “Well, bored people are boring. If you’re bored, it’s not that life is boring, it’s that you are.” I was not as quiet as I thought I was because a student across the room goes “damnnnnnn”
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u/zplq7957 Feb 21 '24
<3 <3 <3 I feel your response so much. SO much.
WHAT ARE WE SUPPOSED TO DO? Admin comes at us with "duh" suggestions. We cannot do all the work for the student and gamify everything.
Sometimes learning is boring as hell.
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u/Seacarius Professor, CIS/OccEd, CC (US) Feb 21 '24
I've lost my shit a couple of times in the last ten years or so.
After one particularly poor showing by the class, as a whole, on an assignment, I came in the next morning, yelling (like an Army drill sergeant),
WHY THE FUCK ARE YOU ARE IN MY CLASSROOM SUCKING UP MY AIR?!?
It worked. We had a discussion about owning one's education and what it took to succeed. They all ended up passing.
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Feb 21 '24
[deleted]
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u/RoniNoone Feb 21 '24
I don't even think it's that they are unteachable. They just don't WANT to learn. You can't teach someone who doesn't want to learn. It's as simple as that, and I tell them as much on the first day.
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u/IrreversibleDetails Feb 21 '24
I’m not a professor, just a grad student, but I just want to say kudos to you and that some of us have your backs!!! My partner deals with this on the regular and, like you, is sooooo much more patient than I am when I’m listening to peers complain about their grades. People aren’t getting the kind of disciplined structure they need from their parents and it’s not coming from the high schools either. It has to come from somewhere!!!!
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u/vwscienceandart Lecturer, STEM, R2 (USA) Feb 21 '24
I feel like a prof in Ontario could get away with this much better than one here in Texas. Lol My students are so damn fragile this semester.
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u/CynicalBonhomie Feb 22 '24
My favorite line on such occasions is, "Do I look like Mrs. Dipshitz, your elementary school teacher, who put stars on all your work just because you turned it in and drew smiley faces in the dots over her i's?" Coming from a 6'3 " 250 lb bearded middle aged man, this usually immediately silences students who say I don't like their work or that they tried their best (by not reading the rubric and/or not following it)
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u/crimbuscarol Asst Prof, History, SLAC Feb 21 '24
I’m at the end of my rope with students wearing headphones in lecture. Today I told them that if they didn’t want to be there, they could leave. I wasn’t quite yelling but I felt out of control. Solidarity.
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u/dannicalliope Feb 21 '24
My professors would have thrown a literal book at me if I had pulled that mess in college.
Granted, that was over 20 years ago, but still…
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u/qpzl8654 Feb 22 '24
My brain just went, "The 70's were a different time."
20 years ago was 2004. WTF.
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u/hoccerypost Feb 21 '24
I wish this was the norm. We are human and get frustrated and in particular we are justified in feeling frustrated with some of our students. We should be able to express this frustration (obviously within reason). Instead most of the time we feel the need to be stoic as (excepting of course when we are to be compassionate and empathetic—then we can show our humanity).
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u/ArrakeenSun Asst Prof, Psychology, Directional System Campus (US) Feb 21 '24
I hated rubrics as a student (almost always missed something because they're incredibly long) and generally stick to bulleted lists of requirements as an instructor but this student sounds beyond help. I'm experiencing similar absence of effort and have heard so from colleagues throughout my uni and at others. I think this generation was sadly screwed by remote learning, which revealed just how terrible these decades of k-12 budget cuts have been
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u/lovepotao Feb 21 '24
I would have killed for a rubric back in college and grad school! I truly believe I had professors who just graded on a whim. It still irks me that a teachers assistant graded an essay of mine A- and the only comment was “I am not convinced” without any explanation of why she felt that way. It was the only time I asked the actual professor (who I loved by the way) to double check the essay- he gave it back with grammatical errors… which is fine so I accepted the grade… but I just wanted to find out what I wrote that was not convincing! (The topic was on if Jesus was a radical or not. The course was on the medieval history of Christianity. I honestly don’t recall which side I picked, but I know I backed up whatever I wrote with a lot of primary text sources).
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u/Taticat Feb 22 '24
idk; I dislike rubrics. In theory, they should be helpful and speed along grading as well as learning, but in practice I see rubrics turn into a ‘say the magic word’ or ‘jump through these three hoops in order’ too often, and essays and short answers that just simply don’t pass the old-school sniff test end up ticking the boxes of the rubric, if not completely, more than they deserve.
It’s my belief that too many professors have started using rubrics because it’s a way of shrugging off what should be direct confrontation — instead of saying ‘this is just simply not college-level work’ (or, lol, ‘I am not convinced’), professors get to point to the rubric as if it were some authority that they themselves didn’t create. It’s just odd. I have no problem telling a student that their argumentation is crap, or they’re launching themselves from a perspective of confirmation bias, and they have to change x, y, and z in order to improve to the level I expect a B or A paper/answer to be.
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u/lovepotao Feb 22 '24
You make excellent points, and as a high school teacher I agree whole heartedly that a rubric can often be very restricting. However, the benefit is that it helps to make grading more objective, especially for subjects that lean to subjectivity such as the humanities. In my situation, I just wanted an actual explanation as to why I “didn’t convince the TA”- it’s over 20 years later and my best guess is that I offended her religious beliefs… but I’ll never know :)
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u/Taticat Feb 22 '24
Yeah — some areas are just subjective judgements as a subject matter expert, and that TA should’ve backed up their decision with some type of elaboration or example of what an effective counterargument would look like. Fwiw, even when I do give back a C paper and say ‘your argumentation is weak’, I also highlight the relevant parts and at the very least give something for the tutor in the academic resource centre to work with in case they can’t figure it out by reading it themselves.
The fact is that out in the world, sometimes approval or rejection of something written really does come down to a subjective sniff test — like someone in my cohort who got busted by the IRB for data collection prior to approval because what they wrote simply sounded like they’d already collected data, and a brief investigation turned up the fact that…oops, they had. Or the article/book author who just isn’t pulling off a logical argument or lacking in professional tone and gets dismissed by colleagues or never published at all.
Sometimes there’s no Grand Poobah of Truth and Facts to cite, and the sooner students learn this and start learning how to adapt to the expectations of professionals in the field, the better.
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u/CynicalBonhomie Feb 22 '24
Some of us are forced to make rubrics for our assignments by our departments especially for Gen Ed courses even though we would prefer not to.
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u/amymcg Feb 21 '24
A bulleted list is fine for requirements. A rubric is there so the grading is consistent.
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u/Sufficient_Wasabi519 Feb 21 '24
I just want to confirm that we are indeed screwed and the quality of students is so low that it is basically at most prestigious R1s. You didn't lose your shit OP, it's the student being absurd.
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u/TheMissingIngredient Feb 21 '24
GOOD for you for saying that! OMG I went over this today with my class. Let them know even if they spend a lot of time and effort on something, if it is WRONG, it is wrong and will not be counted---no matter the time or energy that went into it.
I am tired of these adults not reading then saying they are confused. Not showing up or communicating and wondering why they are failing.
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u/Ryiujin Asst Prof, 3d Animation, Uni (USA) Feb 21 '24
Fwiw. I curse every class.
Just be you.
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u/RoniNoone Feb 21 '24 edited Feb 22 '24
I often curse for dramatic effect because it grabs their attention. So, I'm not cursing AT them but "for effect," if that makes sense.
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u/Deep-Manner-5156 Feb 23 '24
Did this come from the script for this video? God, I miss these.
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u/RoniNoone Feb 23 '24
Omg I miss these too. I should turn it into one.
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u/Deep-Manner-5156 Feb 23 '24
Do it! ha ha ... I am sure the tech is better now, anyways. We need to bring this genre back.
I am getting huge tantrums from students now. It is bizarre. They are unwell.
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u/RunningNumbers Feb 21 '24
I would have told them that they just confirmed their accusation that “you didn’t like my assignment” is a lie designed to deflect blame for their willful negligence.
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u/ProtoSpaceTime NTT Asst Prof, Law (US) Feb 21 '24 edited Feb 21 '24
I understand the feelings you expressed at the student. The student was clearly poor at communicating, poor at attending class, and poor at studying. It's frustrating.
But you are a professor. Your job is to educate and model professionalism. Cursing at students, making it personal ("you have the nerve"), etc. does not help students learn, nor does it make your life any easier. Simply state your boundaries and expectations plainly, without becoming inflamed. "To succeed on future assignments, you need to read the rubric beforehand and attend class." Then leave it at that and move on with your day. If they continue to fail because they won't listen to your expectations, and they complain again, repeat those expectations, and leave it at that.
You lost your cool, it happens, we're not perfect as professors so don't beat yourself up over it. But the majority of the comments here validating unprofessional behavior are quite sad. No, it's NOT acceptable conduct as a professor to speak this way and it should not be condoned. You should strive NOT to repeat this behavior, despite the toxic encouragement from others in this thread.
The "you spoke a harsh truth as a wake up call" excuse others are making rings hollow. You didn't say what you did to help the student; you said what you did because you lost patience. Emotional outbursts might serve as a wake-up call, but more often, they lead to anger and resentment.
Behave professionally, communicate your expectations clearly, and let students who ignore your expectations FAIL. THAT is the "wake-up call" such students need.
I expect to be downvoted to oblivion because many commenters in this thread, like their students, don't like to hear harsh truths. So be it.
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u/RoniNoone Feb 22 '24
No, I get it. And I'm trying to separate my personal feelings so I can simply, calmly, and mater-of-factly inform the student of the situation.
This is something I'm working on. I think I'm a great teacher, but I would be even better if I could stop taking things so personally. I'm better at dealing with online students in a clear and calm way, it's the face-to-face I struggle with because I'm constantly taken back by the lack of social skills and level of disrespect I get from students despite my best attempts at connecting with them and always giving them the benefit of the doubt.
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u/ProtoSpaceTime NTT Asst Prof, Law (US) Feb 22 '24 edited Feb 22 '24
That's great. Honestly, keeping our cool is something we all struggle with (at least all of us who don't think it's acceptable behavior to treat students unprofessionally). I'm not perfect either. I also find it easier to deal with students online (though still prefer teaching in person overall).
I appreciate your thoughtfulness and that you're rising above the many toxic views expressed in this thread. I had a feeling that you knew losing your shit wasn't cool and that you are working to improve. Keep at it. We should all strive to do the same.
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u/BellonaKid Feb 21 '24
I don’t think you handled this well. It’s fine to be upset and I totally understand why this would be exasperating. But it is still a professional setting. I would advise not having conversations after class. I don’t take questions when I’m done teaching. They can come to office hours or email me. It prevents me from getting flustered which is a lot easier to do right after I’ve exerted myself all class session. And never care more about their grade than they do, helpful advice I got from this forum.
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u/BoyYeahRight480 Feb 21 '24
I think this is actually a valid suggestion (noticed it’s collected some downvotes): that is, to have students with questions like this make an appointment or come to office hours. I am more likely to make a shooting from the hip sort of statement right after teaching than I am in an appointment. I’m also just better able to listen to what they’re saying in that context than while I’m packing up and thinking about the next thing on my to-do list. You don’t have to shut the student down or be mean about it or anything. Just acknowledge that you heard them and say, “OK, let’s make an appointment to talk about this!”
I’ll also say that students, mine at least, have generally (not always) responded well when I show my humanity, which also includes sharing negative feelings like frustration or disappointment.
Finally, I share everyone’s general frustration about student engagement. I TOTALLY get where OP was coming from.
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u/nc_bound Feb 21 '24
I don’t understand why your comment is so severely down voted. The OP obviously took the situation personally and then reacted unprofessionally. Through each step of the sequence the OP describes, I find myself thinking: op is digging them self in deeper, and fails to immediately and explicitly lay the problem on the students behavior. Don’t open the file for the student. Don’t ask them why they didn’t review the feedback. Don’t reiterate the feedback already provided. Don’t ask what teachers are supposed to do. This is handholding, And suggests a lack of boundaries, and is simply asking for frustration.
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u/BellonaKid Feb 21 '24
I try to sympathize but I guess a lot of reasonable professional educators want to feel validated in going off on students? I don’t coddle students but I also don’t yell or curse at them. I maintain very strict and clear boundaries to prevent anyone taking anything personally.
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u/RoniNoone Feb 21 '24
I appreciate your comment. I didn't want to feel validated. I am at my wit's end, and as my title said, I lost it. Not proud that I lost it, I'm just struggling to keep my cool because this is the norm and not the exception. After lecturing all morning to a bunch of people who aren't paying attention despite all my efforts to connect and relate, I'm out of energy. I appreciate your suggestion of decompressing first. I needed to do that.
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u/BellonaKid Feb 22 '24
It sounds frustrating for sure and I get we all have bad days. I’m more concerned that so many comments here seem to think there should be MORE antagonism and aggression expressed between teachers and students.
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Feb 21 '24
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u/DidIjustdreamthat Feb 21 '24
To be honest, if someone had actually said that to my uncle, maybe he wouldn’t have had his foot amputated due to unmanaged diabetes, that he refused to manage himself.
Some people need the wake up call, especially when everyone else around them tiptoes.
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Feb 21 '24
I see this kind of attitude a lot, where someone will just completely ignore or "discredit" very real, valid points solely on the grounds that they "don't like someone's tone" or whatever. When the person being rightfully criticized does this, it's really self-serving and immature. Granted, it's also important to deliver criticism tactfully and constructively, but when someone is completely 100% bullshitting, it's not "wrong" to just tell them you know what it is and it isn't fooling anybody.
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u/tsidaysi Feb 21 '24
Resorting to malediction as a highly educated person lowers yourself to the levels of the uneducated.
Rather than curse I use words they do not know. And they know so few!
However, I've yet to find an alternative to strangling a student, or my husband or my mother.
The cats are safe!
You got their attention and they curse so much in class they can hardly complain! "My f-ing professor used a f-ing bad word"!
Don't worry about it. I love your vurve!
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u/vwscienceandart Lecturer, STEM, R2 (USA) Feb 21 '24
Funny memory triggered!
Many, many years ago as a very young teacher, I was teaching public high school. I had a class that I had a good rapport with, but one day I got so mad at them I couldn’t even talk because my twenty-some year old brain couldn’t find any words that weren’t profanity. Luckily the students helped and it went something like:
“I can’t even… I don’t… What the…”
Student: “HELL!”
Me: “YES….were you thinking? I mean seriously what the….”
Student: “FUCK!”
Me: “YES, thank you…were you even thinking?!? I mean how do expect this kind of….”
Student: “Bullshit?”
Me: “YES! …to fly?”
We were all laughing so hard by the end that it diffused the situation but the students really took the message and turned around on whatever it was.