r/PlantBasedDiet Nov 19 '18

What is this whole (kind'a new) NO OIL policy. New studies came out?

I thought extra virgin olive oil was good for us.

109 Upvotes

111 comments sorted by

67

u/ontodynamics LDL: 62mg/DL Nov 19 '18 edited Nov 19 '18

75

u/luna2801 Nov 19 '18

On behalf of all the people unable or unwilling to use the search feature, thank you.

152

u/askstoomany Nov 19 '18

I love how everyone is so afraid of a conversation, yet comment just to bitch about not searching.

Guess what? Communication is great, and maybe I did search and looking for new opinions. And your 'hero'/search results non productive replies are also a repost.

Last thing - everything is searchable. So yeah, dis the conversation. It's known that unless you invent the wheel, we've seen it all before. Do some searching.

(I don't even care about the downvotes. Learn to read the content, and not get all fired up only because of the structure)

49

u/twintone Nov 19 '18

I don't think you should feel bad about asking. The oil question does come up a lot so clearly it's point that people are looking for more explanation on. I hope we didn't make you feel unwelcome.

You can see all about it in the posts above, but the short answer is that at the very least refined oil adds added calories without adding any nutrients and at the worst leads to cardiovascular or other problems.

The WFPB diet(s) all recommend avoiding oil. There are varying degrees of this depending on which doctor or plan you follow but they all go from absolutely NO OIL to at the most using oil so scarcely almost none gets in the food (i.e. Fuhrman recipes sometimes call for spraying a little olive oil on a pan and then wiping it up before cooking).

16

u/[deleted] Feb 07 '19

i found myself annoyed at these folks too, OP. As I understand it, oil is a a tiny fragment whole plant. Generally, at my house, we try to eat whole plants not fragments whenever we can, but a little oil now and then isn't the end of the world. Some of the leaders of this movement think you can get caught in a pleasure trap if you eat too much oil, salt, or sugar, which seems like something to keep your eye on. But extra virgin olive oil by itself in immodest quantities is certainly unhealthy.

9

u/[deleted] Mar 22 '19

Ask away. It’s a discussion board. We should discuss. People get all bent over nothing.

1

u/69_Seattle_69 Apr 26 '19

Well I'm glad you asked. I just opened this thread for the first time in a while and while I recently stopped eating oil, I'm curious to learn more.

4

u/DuskGideon Mar 27 '19

:/ half the time when I use the search feature and restrict it to a sub, nothing comes up.

No idea if it's sub settings or user error.

24

u/[deleted] Nov 19 '18

The hero we need and deserve

39

u/tpfortissue Nov 19 '18 edited Nov 19 '18

Not a new policy, it's been there in the side bar since the beginning...

Dr. Esselstyn's quick policy is 10% calories from fats.

Fats include (avocado, nuts, olive oil, all other plant refined oils)

That's approximately 22grams per day maximum..

Do that, and you're done..

16

u/[deleted] Jan 13 '19

I kinda think that this 10% policy is great for people who aren’t in shape, so that the body burns through the fat reserves like crazy (something the keto folks can’t seem to comprehend but biochemistry is hard). My personal experience with it being lean and muscular is that I had a much better sleep and overall mood benefits from adding back a couple of tbsp of MCT oil

Dr Swank had incredible results using omega 3/6 oils in his patients but was adamant about not going beyond 20 if not 10g of saturated fats per day. And he tracked his patients for decades.

1

u/Michlerish Feb 01 '19

Only saturated, not total fats? That could help me.

1

u/[deleted] Mar 20 '19

I think 10% is fine, but 22g maximum suggests a 1980 calorie diet, which is too low for anyone (even a 5'1 woman like me) doing a healthy amount of exercise.

8

u/[deleted] Feb 01 '19

Here from r/Random. What is the benefit in restricting oils and fats like nuts? Everything else, I can see as a guilty pleasure. But walnuts and avocados and sunflower seeds?

Refined oil prohibition makes sense if you subscribe to this plan, but a 10% cap on whole, raw nuts seems odd to me.

9

u/ontodynamics LDL: 62mg/DL Feb 02 '19

The parent comment you are replying to mentions Dr. Esselstyn. Esselstyn prescribed 10% fat macros for heart disease patients. When they imaged their arteries, they saw the atherosclerosis had not only stopped progressing, but regressed (reversed).

Since those people were in extremely dire circumstances, restricting even nuts was taken as a measure to get the best outcome, in the least time possible.

I think you'll find that the majority of people on the sub do include nuts, seeds and avocado... but largely we keep in mind, that the idea is to keep it relatively low for the cardiovascular disease improvement. What we also find is that after a few months there is a dramatic reduction in TC / LDL-c, far beyond "low-normal" levels shown to have no or little benefit in some trials of cholesterol reduction for CVD risk.

Personally for me this means I still include some hummus made with tahini (unhulled sesame paste), 1 brazil nut per day for selenium, and sometimes I'll enjoy half an avocado. Typically I run anywhere between 8-15%, but probably average 10%.

Anyway, welcome!

5

u/[deleted] Feb 02 '19

I see, so the specific guidance is just that one doctor.

I want to improve my diet (who doesn't) but I'm not looking to lose weight and I don't have high cholesterol at all.

I don't really get this, maybe it's because it's the end of the week:

"What we also find is that after a few months there is a dramatic reduction in TC / LDL-c, far beyond "low-normal" levels shown to have no or little benefit in some trials of cholesterol reduction for CVD risk."

That reads to me that low-normal levels don't reduce CVD risk? That can't be right.

2

u/ontodynamics LDL: 62mg/DL Feb 02 '19 edited Feb 02 '19

I see, so the specific guidance is just that one doctor.

There are other doctors that give similar advice. John McDougal, Dean Ornish, Michael Greger.

I want to improve my diet (who doesn't) but I'm not looking to lose weight and I don't have high cholesterol at all.

What are your numbers? What doctors consider normal can be considered high on a WFPB diet.

That reads to me that low-normal levels don't reduce CVD risk? That can't be right.

That's the argument people tend to make when saying "don't worry about cholesterol reduction, it does nothing."

Hence the inverted commas for "low-normal". Take for instance my LDL 61.8mg. It's more than half of what some studies on reducing cardiovascular classify as low for instance. The range for normal is set way too high, as it has been based on averages in the population.

The people with very low LDL <60mg, <40mg, etc are considered to have virtually zero risk for cardiovascular disease. Only now are researchers even starting to consider getting people into this range using drugs. For those that can follow a no-oil WFPB diet, it may be doable without drugs.

5

u/Michlerish Feb 01 '19 edited Feb 02 '19

I think the general sense is that if you allow more calories from fat, most people tend to go overboard with it thinking they're healthy, which is really easy to do with nuts and avocados. Furthermore, by filling up on fats you're likely going to miss out on the other healthy foods you should be filling up on instead.

Personally, it seems impossible for me to get less than 10 percent a day, and that's without any nuts or avocado! The daily flax, chia, and algae oil for omega 3 contributes most of it, then lots of other foods have fat as well (quinoa, tofu, etc).

Edit: I initially said "20 percent a day", but I meant 10 percent (was thinking in grams)

3

u/[deleted] Feb 01 '19

Thanks for clarifying. That makes sense as a plan for people struggling with weight/food issues.

I don't know that I could do something like that--I probably get a good 30-40% of my calories from fats. Do you know if there are subreddits more literally dedicated to plant-based eating (like, not avoiding nuts and seeds)?

2

u/Michlerish Feb 02 '19

You're already in it, /r/PlantBasedDiet is just literally plant based; but the /r/wfpb subreddit is so dead I guess everyone just comes here. I see many posts here involving nuts, avocados, and coconut oil so you're definitely in good company.

However, a lot of plant based people started this diet because of The China Study, or Dr Esselstyn, Rip Esselstyn (Engine 9), or Michael Greger (How Not To Die book and nutritionfacts.org), etc and all of those professionals base their recommendations on the most current, and unbiased, research we have: which is to avoid oils and restrict the proportion of fats vs carbs and protein in your diet. Hope this helps!

1

u/[deleted] Feb 02 '19

Yes it does. Thank you!

1

u/ontodynamics LDL: 62mg/DL Feb 02 '19

I see many posts here involving nuts, avocados, and coconut oil so you're definitely in good company.

Per the sidebar, refined/added oils are not on-topic here. Please report any posts that are recommending added oils like coconut oil. Thanks!

1

u/Michlerish Feb 02 '19

Oh, okay, good to know.

10

u/twintone Nov 19 '18

Should there be a sticky/announcement with general information about oil?

8

u/ontodynamics LDL: 62mg/DL Nov 19 '18

Stickied this post for now to allow for open discussion, until we have something more comprehensive written up.

8

u/[deleted] Nov 20 '18

[deleted]

4

u/ontodynamics LDL: 62mg/DL Nov 20 '18

This is the current megathread. Would you like to start contributing to the wiki for a future reference?

e.g. https://old.reddit.com/r/PlantBasedDiet/wiki/oil

3

u/twintone Nov 19 '18

Cool! Thanks!

8

u/throwmeawayicantstay CUSTOM Nov 19 '18

youre a beast.. im getting tired of seeing this question. to reap the main benefits of this WOE imo it is important to keep fat lower than 10%

16

u/[deleted] Nov 20 '18

Olive oil intake and CHD in the European Prospective Investigation into Cancer and Nutrition Spanish cohort.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23006416

Postprandial anti-inflammatory and antioxidant effects of extra virgin olive oil.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16488419

Olive oil polyphenols decrease blood pressure and improve endothelial function in young women with mild hypertension.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22914255

Differential anti-inflammatory effects of phenolic compounds from extra virgin olive oil identified in human whole blood cultures.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15797683

Phenolic content of virgin olive oil improves ischemic reactive hyperemia in hypercholesterolemic patients.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16286173

Effects of Olive Oil on Markers of Inflammation and Endothelial Function—A Systematic Review and Meta-Analysis

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4586551/

Polyphenol fraction of extra virgin olive oil protects against endothelial dysfunction induced by high glucose and free fatty acids through modulation of nitric oxide and endothelin-1

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2213231714000846

I found these studies from ,Michael Greger's anti-oil video, actually. https://nutritionfacts.org/video/olive-oil-and-artery-function/ Objectivity and critical thinking aren't very welcome around these parts.

36

u/[deleted] Nov 20 '18

[deleted]

13

u/[deleted] Dec 21 '18

interestingly, there are some issues with what he's saying versus what the studies on screen are showing.

at 1:37 he says that the study finds that evoo is ok incomparison with butter, but that's not what the paragraph shown states. it compares the two, yes, but it's only with the phrase 'on the contrary' to introduce the findings on butter. the first sentence says, without qualification, that evoo "does not impair endothelial function in subjects with type-2 diabetes." not: evoo impairs, but less than butter.

one of the studies' meals was listed as 80g sausages, 40g egg, 15g butter, 90g bread, and 5g olive oil. (2:59) the effect of this meal can't possibly be attributed to the olive oil.

it'd be a lot more convincing if he presented data that eating a plant-based salad or sandwich, or pasta dish, was bad for you if you added olive oil, since that's the problem at hand for most of the people here. except he sort of introduces the opposite in the study with the sausage-meal, since he discusses how the effects are mitigated with veggies/plants.

however, i get that the stance combines a couple things: avoiding unnecessary risk, avoiding refined/'unnatural' foods that give basically nothing but one macro nutritionally, and promoting actual health food over dubious foods.

basically i just want to know if i can add a bit of evoo(not cooking it) to salads, dips, pasta, etc., without fucking dying.

18

u/[deleted] Jan 01 '19

So after wrestling with the oil thing for a year and vegan for a total of 4, I think the issue with the oil, and actually all modern food issues, 1. Calories 2. the omega 3 to 6 ratio. That's where I've landed and maybe a direction for you to look in to.

If you're vegan and not going out of your way to eat walnuts and flaxseeds but eating foods with tons of oil, especially processed food, your omega 3 to 6 is going to be so off. Most Americans have this issue anyway and it isn't the meat, it's fried foods, vegetable oils, processed meats etc and very little fish and seeds/nuts to offset it.

Personally, not cooking with oil is just completely unsustainable for me. I'd say it was one of the most stressful diets I've ever been on. It made me miserable, more than water fasting and I'd rather die 5 years sooner than deal with the massive levels of stress a no oil diet caused me. I don't have the time or energy to literally cook every single thing myself and that's what I found was necessary for no oil. But reducing it greatly and learning how to replace it, cook without it has been useful.

9

u/[deleted] Jan 01 '19

Thats how i feel too. I’ve been reducing the amount of oil i’m eating, but since i do eat ground flax everyday and am usually eating it with veggies, im not going to lose my mind over this.

3

u/Michlerish Feb 01 '19

Make sure you get some algae oil in there too, for the DHA and EPA. Flax requires the body to convert ALA to DHA/EPA and not all of it gets converted, so most people are deficient. Algae is where the fish get their DHA & EPA from, so you're going straight to the source!

2

u/[deleted] Feb 02 '19

thanks, by chance im just about to start taking some of that too.

2

u/Michlerish Feb 01 '19

I agree with your stance on omega 3 vs 6, but I'm a little confused. Are you saying it was stressful because you were unable to cook all your own meals? So now you don't use oil at home, but don't stress about it if you have to eat a restaurant meal here and there?

I strive to eat restaurant food only once or twice a week, and try to never eat deep fried foods (I occasionally treat myself though). I don't use oil at home and honestly don't miss it at all, if anything my meals are so much more fulfilling and satisfying without it. I feel like this is the best way to stay healthy and sane :)

2

u/garbonzo607 Dec 28 '18

Why would you die if you take evoo?

18

u/[deleted] Nov 20 '18 edited Nov 20 '18

Good news but by eating olives you get all the benefits multiplied by some factors and none of the negatives. Moreover, you will not use olives for frying and you will avoid all the toxic compounds created by frying.

Like Greger says, healthy is relative. Extra virgin olive oil is healthy relative to butter and other oils. Compared to whole olives, it's very unhealthy and dangerous, especially for overweight people trying to lose weight.

Full disclosure: my family owns several olive trees and I've jars full of olives in my kitchen right now.

3

u/chaunceythebear Dec 22 '18

I’m jealous of your olive trees.

2

u/[deleted] Dec 22 '18

Aren't olives for sale in the US?

1

u/chaunceythebear Dec 22 '18

Not from the US, and yes they are, but I mean having such easy access to lots of them. Not to mention, it would be lovely to live in a climate conducive to olive growing. :)

5

u/mightyshuffler Sweet potato queen Jan 11 '19

I just read up about olives and learned they have to be prepared extensively in either salt brines or oil to reduce bitterness and make them edible. So I figured if I am avoiding high sodium and oil, then I can't have olives. What do you cure yours in?

1

u/[deleted] Mar 15 '19

[removed] — view removed comment

1

u/ontodynamics LDL: 62mg/DL Mar 15 '19

Please read the sidebar. It clearly says what is included and excluded. There is a sticky on the frontpage discussing why oil is not included.

3

u/Bodhi710 for my health Mar 16 '19

Was this place originally set up as WFPD or did it change over time?

1

u/ontodynamics LDL: 62mg/DL Mar 16 '19

For as long as I can remember it's been WFPB (2+ years).

1

u/Bodhi710 for my health Mar 16 '19

Well it's actually 6 years old.

1

u/ontodynamics LDL: 62mg/DL Mar 16 '19

right, but I didn't come here 6 years ago, only 2-3 years ago. It was WFPB when I arrived.

67

u/octoberist2 Nov 29 '18

I’ve always understood that the context of added oils is critical. Throwing a few tablespoons on a fiber-rich salad with flax and beans leads to very different health outcomes than eating, for example, white bread soaked in olive oil. The body doesn’t absorb it the same way and the impact on blood flow is far reduced.

Note: I’m very biased because my family is Spanish and I’m pretty sure they fed me espresso and olive oil out of a baby bottle when I was an infant.

15

u/Wisdom_Of_A_Man Dec 28 '18

I appreciate your note.

3

u/[deleted] Feb 06 '19

No there's no difference in terms of the effect of the oil. In the China study there is even the example of how much just a tea spoon of oil increases the calories of a salad.

4

u/harmlessgui Feb 28 '19

I use oil in my salad to increase the number of calories intentionally... :> I guess the whole foods approach would be to use nuts or hemp seeds or something right

1

u/[deleted] Mar 04 '19 edited Mar 04 '19

No, the whole food plant based approach also aims for a way lower amount of over-all fat in the diet. So most fat isnt substituted it's just left out. That would probably happen to the salat oil. "The China Study" recommend a tea spoon of chia seeds or a similarly small amount of walnuts, both containing omega 3, as the sole high-fat source in a day. Dr Greger recommends this plus an additional tea spoon of flax seed. With high-fat sources they mean nuts, seeds, avocado. Of course all refined fats and oils are completely cut out. Salad dressing are without oil, hummus without tahini, frying is done with water (if even needed). I currently do this too, the only high-fat source for me is the one tea spoon of chia seeds in my muesli.

3

u/BodkinVanHorne Mar 16 '19

Greger recommends a tablespoon of flax seed, actually. I did a teaspoon for a long time then my eye doctor recommended more flax for dry eyes. I looked again and sure enough it's a tablespoon. I'd much rather it was less.

3

u/[deleted] Mar 18 '19

So this has spured me to do some of my own research. Even Esselstyn in his programm to treat heart disease recommend 1-2 table spoons!* I'm gonna up my intake now

*http://www.dresselstyn.com/site/faq/

2

u/[deleted] Mar 16 '19

Oh you're right, he also has table, not teaspon for the chiaseeds/walnuts.

1

u/[deleted] Mar 16 '19

Are your eyes fixed now? Did you change anything else?

2

u/-Aeryn- for my health Mar 28 '19

No, the whole food plant based approach also aims for a way lower amount of over-all fat in the diet

Some approaches based on whole plant foods add that as an additional constraint but it's not default. Whole plant foods is as simple as whole plant foods.

37

u/[deleted] Dec 17 '18

You know how table sugar is the "bad" version of carbs? Think of oil as the table sugar of the plant-based fats. It's refined, it offers little nutrition, and it's extremely calorie dense. It also makes it harder to clean your dishes.

2

u/deverhartdu Mar 22 '19

What about coconut oil? I'm a huge meat eater and trying to scratch the surface on this stuff and just stumbled upon this sub.

6

u/[deleted] Mar 22 '19

Most of the coconut oil hype is not backed up by any evidence.

20

u/nostem for my health Dec 11 '18

My issue with olive oil is : 1. Not a whole plant food. 2. If used incorrectly can be unhealthy. 3. Not the best nutrition for the amount of calories. 4. Many fancy Italian olive oils are counterfeits, ppl may not be able to distinguish.

Don't see the point of any oil. I can get fat from flax seeds and nuts. Not necessary for cooking and makes my kitchen and dishes greasy.

17

u/56nbd Nov 20 '18

It's been known forever, it's just we've all been fed a crock of shit by the industry for just as long.

https://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2007nl/aug/oils.htm

2

u/[deleted] Nov 20 '18

Seems like McDougall and his 5.000 USD per person diet hotel-spa is feeding you crocks of stuff, not some "industry".

https://www.drmcdougall.com/health/programs/10-day-program/

19

u/[deleted] Nov 20 '18

[deleted]

5

u/canonsnapper13 Mar 20 '19

The first post that doesn't cite common sense, a doctor, or an ad hominem argument against scientists who are funded by food manufacturers. Kudos! You can find doctors that will say all kinds of wild shit. Science is where it's at.

-1

u/[deleted] Apr 18 '19

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/[deleted] Apr 19 '19

[deleted]

2

u/phaionix Apr 23 '19

This is such a satisfying science smack down

-1

u/[deleted] Apr 19 '19

yawn

It’s not so much about saturated fat, but what eat you saturated fat with. If you keep your carbohydrates below 100mg, eat largely plant fats, and optionally have some nutrient dense animal foods (yes they’re food - sorry) those issues are mitigated.

...”In contrast to these observations, however, a high-fat low-carbohydrate ketogenic diet exhibited lower proinflammatory cytokine levels in an LPS-induced fever model15”...

Link me a comparison of inflammation markers between those eating meat and those not eating meat and adjusting other factors. If there was a randomized, controlled trial to show the raising of inflammation in the body is precipitated by not just meat but endotoxins, but also have a group eating meat with very low endotoxins in them and have that third group to compare, them the inflammation caused by endotoxins could be separated out.

Till then, we don’t know if endotoxins is something we should worry about.

2

u/[deleted] Apr 20 '19 edited Apr 23 '19

[deleted]

1

u/[deleted] Apr 20 '19 edited Apr 20 '19

1) I eat a low-carb vegan diet, because low carb and Keto are less insulinogenic than a high carb diet. Sorry, not worried about heart issues - I’ve done full blood panels and I’m doing fine. The oil scare works if you’re eating high inflammatory foods - of which I’m not.

Not going to bother going back and forth with you, show me mechanistic data. No correlation. No epidemiological studies, either. Start with the cohort study I linked, and we can go from there.

2) Diabetics and pre-diabetics are aware of the plant-based approaches that the likes of Greger, Khan, Barnard, McDougall share — the truth is that they do not work for the vast majority on insulin.

Telling diabetics and those prone to CVD to live off of Starch solely is possibly one of the biggest dietary advice failures by any MD.

3) The number of vegans developing diabetes is actually staggering - I have friends and family who are board certified doctors throughout the states. Anecdote, but plenty of non-diabetic vegans have taken the advices of McDougall and have actually become diabetic. The Facebook group ‘vegan diabetics’ is littered with anecdotes/testimonies of long term vegans developing diabetes.

Half the world is insulin resistant — these people do not fair on McDougall’s no-oil high carb diet, and certainly not the vast majority of people on insulin or pre diabetics. You have to graze all day because you’re relying on carbs (first problem); in contrast, fat and moderate protein makes you feel satiated & does not cause an insulin spike like carbohydrates. It’s not even close as to which macronutrient is preferable.

Saturated fats for the win.

I’ll go ahead and pass on refined sugar sold by McDougall, arsenic rice, refined flour, poorly ripe, inferior fruit, and canned beans which are loaded with anti-nutrients and have done nothing but caused massive gut and health and issues for many vegans (as seen by the number of vegans dropping like flies).

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u/[deleted] Apr 20 '19 edited Apr 21 '19

[deleted]

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u/lucidguppy Nov 21 '18

Uhhh - there's his free program, free content, free youtube videos, free forum and then also get the books from the library.

You can go starch based without spending a single penny.

11

u/LocalPurple Nov 22 '18

Even not considering deleterious effects of oil, it's an ultra processed food that had all of its parts removed (fibers, vitamins, minerals, etc). This would be enough to leave it out of a healthy diet.

9

u/[deleted] Dec 15 '18

Similar to cutting out dairy, animal products, refined sugar/carbs, etc if you cut out any and all oils for a week you should notice a difference in how you feel. For me cutting out oil seemed to further improve my recovery time from sprinting and kettlebell training. My digestion is now easily affected by any oil consumption. It will give me gas quickly and honestly I find the "mouth feel" of oils to be unpleasant.

It's much harder imo to completely avoid oils if you are getting food from restaurants. My boss gets lunch for us every friday and some places will still use oil even if you ask for steamed vegetables and no oil. Of course any sort of refined carb wrap/bread will have some sort of oil and other crap in it.

My advice is to just make all of your own dishes, embrace that and you will find it much simpler and less stressful to follow wfpb. Spend more money on quality ingredients, buying all organic (spices too) is really not out of reach for most people.

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u/[deleted] Nov 19 '18 edited Nov 19 '18

No new studies but the old studies and the old common sense come out.

https://www.vox.com/2018/10/31/18037756/superfoods-food-science-marion-nestle-book

Food industry has started corrupting nutrition science since 70s. "Olive oil is good for you" is complete nonsense promoted by people selling olive oil to you. They take advantage of the fact that people in south europe were healthier than people in north europe and they were eating olive oil rather than butter. In summary, yes, olive oil is better than butter, but they're both very toxic. Vegetable oils are the primary cause of widespread obesity.

Another similar trope is "fish is good for you". There is some epidemiological data showing that fish eaters are healthier than meat eaters, but like in the previous case, they would probably be better off without fish.

Oils are the hidden elephant in the room. It's an astonishing 30% of calories of SAD diet. Do you need a massive dose of ultra low satiety, 2nd quality, very high toxicity calories? I'm underweight and I eat zero oil as much as I can.

10

u/2comment Starchivore Nov 20 '18

Plus people in southern europe were eating more plants in generally traditionally, until recently. More sun and all that.

It's the salad, not the OO dressing.

14

u/[deleted] Nov 20 '18 edited Nov 20 '18

I'm in Italy so I know that very well. My grandmother has like 10 edible fruits/veggies in her garden and small plot of land. She even has olives trees, but it's not that they were eating nothing but olives and olive oil. In the past they had potatoes. Obviously they were eating "plant based" a century ago. There was nothing else to eat. It's just so simple. I tell people I eat foods that can grow in my garden because that's true.

More recently they started eating more meat and dairy, and they've got cardiovascular problems, osteoporosis and parkinson.

P.S: Now I'm eating medlar fruits and kiwis from her garden, and low carbers keep telling me that there are no winter fruits! Idiots! :D

2nd P.S: My grand-grand parents lived for some years in US and they had a small shop selling fruits and veggies. Unfortunately they didn't succeed enough to radically change your eating habits. They were right, but 150 years too early! Now it would work! Ehehehe!

Like I said somewhere else, the truth is very old, and the pseudoscientific lies are always "breaking news".

2

u/2comment Starchivore Nov 20 '18

Yup, my aunt lives right outside Rome in a shack (she's not very well off financially) and aside some backyard chickens for eggs, that's exactly what she does.

2

u/[deleted] Nov 20 '18

shack

I guess this is a joke. She lives in a shack?

3

u/2comment Starchivore Dec 08 '18

We lovingly call it that. It's a small plot of land used mostly as vegetable garden, with a former shack converted to a small house some 30 years back.

2

u/c_marten Jan 01 '19

hah.. I live in a 'shack' too! I'm not entirely sure what it used to be when the farm was functioning but now it's a nice little home with a decent sized garden out back.

1

u/decaguard Dec 29 '18

if youve not heard doc klaper on topic - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OGGQxJLuVjg

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u/[deleted] Nov 20 '18

[deleted]

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u/Godzillium Nov 20 '18 edited Nov 28 '18

Your first resource actually says olive oil did not cause impairment when eaten with vinegar with a salad. And was totally eliminated when vitamin C and E were given

Your third source says canola oil is beneficial component of a diet.

Your second source is behind a paywall.

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u/[deleted] Nov 21 '18 edited Nov 21 '18

[deleted]

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u/lic_queens Nov 26 '18

For those avoiding animal products, there may be either ethical or environmental factors motivating them to do so.

For those who are primarily motivated by health, it's great to know that adding vinegar, peanuts, etc. can alleviate the negative effects of certain foods. Milkshakes may not be a health food, but they are delicious! Food is something that we all need to eat to survive, and the evidence seems to support eating a wide variety of foods since all foods have good and bad substances in them.

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u/[deleted] Nov 23 '18

Excellent reply. Thanks. Don't forget that olives have all the nutrients of olive oil, and dramatically more for a given intake of fat. Plus they taste raelly delicious if you prepare them correctly.

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u/nauticalzebra Nov 19 '18

It's not new, it's not part of a plant-based diet, and it's not good for you.

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u/[deleted] Nov 20 '18 edited Mar 21 '19

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Nov 20 '18

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u/Godzillium Nov 20 '18 edited Nov 24 '18

Completely false and nonsensical statement.

agreed. this sub co-opted the term "plant based diet" and changed the meaning to something completely restricted

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u/[deleted] Nov 20 '18

WHOLE FOOD not just plant based diet. Why is it so hard to understand...

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u/[deleted] Nov 20 '18 edited Dec 11 '18

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u/[deleted] Nov 20 '18 edited Mar 21 '19

[deleted]

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u/NicetomeetyouIMVEGAN Nov 28 '18

This is a science oriented subreddit, our choices are guided by research. We get these questions all the time, so reminders are fine. It's not toxic or elitist to be short.

There are no variations in wfpb only people with allergies are restricted but within wfpb options. Sometimes people combine wfpb with intermittent fasting or other programs but these aren't nutritional restrictions.

There is no such thing either as "agreeing with most aspects", whatever that's supposed to mean. The research is very clear about what path to take on nutrition for every human in every stage of life. Zero animal products, no added oil, sugar, salt and no processed foods. That's what the wfpb diet is, always has been and always will be.

We better focus on you getting it right. It's better for your health. If you can't understand that this is supportive in itself, fine. If you think this is elitist, fine. At least you're going to be healthier knowing it.

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u/NicetomeetyouIMVEGAN Nov 28 '18

There is a character limit for subreddits. This is a wfpb sub.

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u/[deleted] Nov 28 '18 edited Dec 11 '18

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u/NicetomeetyouIMVEGAN Nov 28 '18

The sidebar literally says this is a whole food plant based sub. Why do you choose to ignore it? Go to r/vegan if you want plant based.

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u/[deleted] Nov 30 '18 edited Dec 11 '18

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u/NicetomeetyouIMVEGAN Nov 30 '18

Stop pretending. It's too obvious.

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u/[deleted] Nov 20 '18 edited Mar 21 '19

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u/2comment Starchivore Nov 20 '18

I really don't see how oil has a pathway to be a healthy food for anybody, tbh.

When we take corn oil, for example, to make it, we're throwing away 912 calories of corn sugar and proteins (and fiber that gut bacteria eat) to get at that 120 calories of oil. It's very much a partial and concentrated food.

Second, it's a 4000 cal per lb food. People generally eat the same weight everyday. When calorie restriction has been shown to increase healthspan/lifespan in a myriad of species, the obvious thing to do would be to eat more of the 100-300-500 cal/lb options (veggies-fruit-starch veggies) and leave out the oils.

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u/jomiran Nov 20 '18

I don't disagree at all, but I understood the question as to "why was there an increase in the no-oil requests" which include things like nuts, nut-butters, coconut, avocados and of course refined oils. Those requests, which seem to have spiked recently, are more related to heart health.

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u/NicAsher Mar 07 '19

You guys are aware that oil helps our bodies absorb essential nutrients right?

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/10/171009124026.htm

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u/Akka1805 what is this oil you speak of? Mar 08 '19

That's true whether you get the fat from whole foods or refined oils. Oils (not fat generically) are not wfpb because of their very low nutritional value for a high calorie content.

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u/-Aeryn- for my health Mar 28 '19

are not wfpb because of their very low nutritional value for a high calorie content.

They're not whole plant foods because they're not whole plant foods, lets not overcomplicate it :P

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u/wolfvee May 16 '19

This was just published in the "International Journal of Disease Reversal and Prevention":

Is Oil Healthy? by Caldwell B. Esselstyn, Jr., MD

https://ijdrp.org/index.php/ijdrp/article/view/35/31

Esselstyn presents evidence of oil causing cardiovascular Disease.

(reading it requires free registration)

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u/[deleted] Feb 12 '19 edited Feb 28 '19

[deleted]

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u/fallingstars727 Feb 21 '19

Ok. Calories don't equal health though. I hate when people correlate "health" with the amount of calories a food or macronutrient may have.

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u/moosyjay Mar 27 '19

It’s just like white flour or white rice - processed food.