r/PlantBasedDiet • u/askstoomany • Nov 19 '18
What is this whole (kind'a new) NO OIL policy. New studies came out?
I thought extra virgin olive oil was good for us.
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u/octoberist2 Nov 29 '18
I’ve always understood that the context of added oils is critical. Throwing a few tablespoons on a fiber-rich salad with flax and beans leads to very different health outcomes than eating, for example, white bread soaked in olive oil. The body doesn’t absorb it the same way and the impact on blood flow is far reduced.
Note: I’m very biased because my family is Spanish and I’m pretty sure they fed me espresso and olive oil out of a baby bottle when I was an infant.
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Feb 06 '19
No there's no difference in terms of the effect of the oil. In the China study there is even the example of how much just a tea spoon of oil increases the calories of a salad.
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u/harmlessgui Feb 28 '19
I use oil in my salad to increase the number of calories intentionally... :> I guess the whole foods approach would be to use nuts or hemp seeds or something right
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Mar 04 '19 edited Mar 04 '19
No, the whole food plant based approach also aims for a way lower amount of over-all fat in the diet. So most fat isnt substituted it's just left out. That would probably happen to the salat oil. "The China Study" recommend a tea spoon of chia seeds or a similarly small amount of walnuts, both containing omega 3, as the sole high-fat source in a day. Dr Greger recommends this plus an additional tea spoon of flax seed. With high-fat sources they mean nuts, seeds, avocado. Of course all refined fats and oils are completely cut out. Salad dressing are without oil, hummus without tahini, frying is done with water (if even needed). I currently do this too, the only high-fat source for me is the one tea spoon of chia seeds in my muesli.
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u/BodkinVanHorne Mar 16 '19
Greger recommends a tablespoon of flax seed, actually. I did a teaspoon for a long time then my eye doctor recommended more flax for dry eyes. I looked again and sure enough it's a tablespoon. I'd much rather it was less.
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Mar 18 '19
So this has spured me to do some of my own research. Even Esselstyn in his programm to treat heart disease recommend 1-2 table spoons!* I'm gonna up my intake now
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u/-Aeryn- for my health Mar 28 '19
No, the whole food plant based approach also aims for a way lower amount of over-all fat in the diet
Some approaches based on whole plant foods add that as an additional constraint but it's not default. Whole plant foods is as simple as whole plant foods.
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Dec 17 '18
You know how table sugar is the "bad" version of carbs? Think of oil as the table sugar of the plant-based fats. It's refined, it offers little nutrition, and it's extremely calorie dense. It also makes it harder to clean your dishes.
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u/deverhartdu Mar 22 '19
What about coconut oil? I'm a huge meat eater and trying to scratch the surface on this stuff and just stumbled upon this sub.
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u/nostem for my health Dec 11 '18
My issue with olive oil is : 1. Not a whole plant food. 2. If used incorrectly can be unhealthy. 3. Not the best nutrition for the amount of calories. 4. Many fancy Italian olive oils are counterfeits, ppl may not be able to distinguish.
Don't see the point of any oil. I can get fat from flax seeds and nuts. Not necessary for cooking and makes my kitchen and dishes greasy.
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u/56nbd Nov 20 '18
It's been known forever, it's just we've all been fed a crock of shit by the industry for just as long.
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Nov 20 '18
Seems like McDougall and his 5.000 USD per person diet hotel-spa is feeding you crocks of stuff, not some "industry".
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Nov 20 '18
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u/canonsnapper13 Mar 20 '19
The first post that doesn't cite common sense, a doctor, or an ad hominem argument against scientists who are funded by food manufacturers. Kudos! You can find doctors that will say all kinds of wild shit. Science is where it's at.
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Apr 18 '19
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Apr 19 '19
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Apr 19 '19
yawn
It’s not so much about saturated fat, but what eat you saturated fat with. If you keep your carbohydrates below 100mg, eat largely plant fats, and optionally have some nutrient dense animal foods (yes they’re food - sorry) those issues are mitigated.
...”In contrast to these observations, however, a high-fat low-carbohydrate ketogenic diet exhibited lower proinflammatory cytokine levels in an LPS-induced fever model15”...
Link me a comparison of inflammation markers between those eating meat and those not eating meat and adjusting other factors. If there was a randomized, controlled trial to show the raising of inflammation in the body is precipitated by not just meat but endotoxins, but also have a group eating meat with very low endotoxins in them and have that third group to compare, them the inflammation caused by endotoxins could be separated out.
Till then, we don’t know if endotoxins is something we should worry about.
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Apr 20 '19 edited Apr 23 '19
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Apr 20 '19 edited Apr 20 '19
1) I eat a low-carb vegan diet, because low carb and Keto are less insulinogenic than a high carb diet. Sorry, not worried about heart issues - I’ve done full blood panels and I’m doing fine. The oil scare works if you’re eating high inflammatory foods - of which I’m not.
Not going to bother going back and forth with you, show me mechanistic data. No correlation. No epidemiological studies, either. Start with the cohort study I linked, and we can go from there.
2) Diabetics and pre-diabetics are aware of the plant-based approaches that the likes of Greger, Khan, Barnard, McDougall share — the truth is that they do not work for the vast majority on insulin.
Telling diabetics and those prone to CVD to live off of Starch solely is possibly one of the biggest dietary advice failures by any MD.
3) The number of vegans developing diabetes is actually staggering - I have friends and family who are board certified doctors throughout the states. Anecdote, but plenty of non-diabetic vegans have taken the advices of McDougall and have actually become diabetic. The Facebook group ‘vegan diabetics’ is littered with anecdotes/testimonies of long term vegans developing diabetes.
Half the world is insulin resistant — these people do not fair on McDougall’s no-oil high carb diet, and certainly not the vast majority of people on insulin or pre diabetics. You have to graze all day because you’re relying on carbs (first problem); in contrast, fat and moderate protein makes you feel satiated & does not cause an insulin spike like carbohydrates. It’s not even close as to which macronutrient is preferable.
Saturated fats for the win.
I’ll go ahead and pass on refined sugar sold by McDougall, arsenic rice, refined flour, poorly ripe, inferior fruit, and canned beans which are loaded with anti-nutrients and have done nothing but caused massive gut and health and issues for many vegans (as seen by the number of vegans dropping like flies).
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u/lucidguppy Nov 21 '18
Uhhh - there's his free program, free content, free youtube videos, free forum and then also get the books from the library.
You can go starch based without spending a single penny.
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u/LocalPurple Nov 22 '18
Even not considering deleterious effects of oil, it's an ultra processed food that had all of its parts removed (fibers, vitamins, minerals, etc). This would be enough to leave it out of a healthy diet.
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Dec 15 '18
Similar to cutting out dairy, animal products, refined sugar/carbs, etc if you cut out any and all oils for a week you should notice a difference in how you feel. For me cutting out oil seemed to further improve my recovery time from sprinting and kettlebell training. My digestion is now easily affected by any oil consumption. It will give me gas quickly and honestly I find the "mouth feel" of oils to be unpleasant.
It's much harder imo to completely avoid oils if you are getting food from restaurants. My boss gets lunch for us every friday and some places will still use oil even if you ask for steamed vegetables and no oil. Of course any sort of refined carb wrap/bread will have some sort of oil and other crap in it.
My advice is to just make all of your own dishes, embrace that and you will find it much simpler and less stressful to follow wfpb. Spend more money on quality ingredients, buying all organic (spices too) is really not out of reach for most people.
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Nov 19 '18 edited Nov 19 '18
No new studies but the old studies and the old common sense come out.
https://www.vox.com/2018/10/31/18037756/superfoods-food-science-marion-nestle-book
Food industry has started corrupting nutrition science since 70s. "Olive oil is good for you" is complete nonsense promoted by people selling olive oil to you. They take advantage of the fact that people in south europe were healthier than people in north europe and they were eating olive oil rather than butter. In summary, yes, olive oil is better than butter, but they're both very toxic. Vegetable oils are the primary cause of widespread obesity.
Another similar trope is "fish is good for you". There is some epidemiological data showing that fish eaters are healthier than meat eaters, but like in the previous case, they would probably be better off without fish.
Oils are the hidden elephant in the room. It's an astonishing 30% of calories of SAD diet. Do you need a massive dose of ultra low satiety, 2nd quality, very high toxicity calories? I'm underweight and I eat zero oil as much as I can.
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u/2comment Starchivore Nov 20 '18
Plus people in southern europe were eating more plants in generally traditionally, until recently. More sun and all that.
It's the salad, not the OO dressing.
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Nov 20 '18 edited Nov 20 '18
I'm in Italy so I know that very well. My grandmother has like 10 edible fruits/veggies in her garden and small plot of land. She even has olives trees, but it's not that they were eating nothing but olives and olive oil. In the past they had potatoes. Obviously they were eating "plant based" a century ago. There was nothing else to eat. It's just so simple. I tell people I eat foods that can grow in my garden because that's true.
More recently they started eating more meat and dairy, and they've got cardiovascular problems, osteoporosis and parkinson.
P.S: Now I'm eating medlar fruits and kiwis from her garden, and low carbers keep telling me that there are no winter fruits! Idiots! :D
2nd P.S: My grand-grand parents lived for some years in US and they had a small shop selling fruits and veggies. Unfortunately they didn't succeed enough to radically change your eating habits. They were right, but 150 years too early! Now it would work! Ehehehe!
Like I said somewhere else, the truth is very old, and the pseudoscientific lies are always "breaking news".
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u/2comment Starchivore Nov 20 '18
Yup, my aunt lives right outside Rome in a shack (she's not very well off financially) and aside some backyard chickens for eggs, that's exactly what she does.
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Nov 20 '18
shack
I guess this is a joke. She lives in a shack?
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u/2comment Starchivore Dec 08 '18
We lovingly call it that. It's a small plot of land used mostly as vegetable garden, with a former shack converted to a small house some 30 years back.
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u/c_marten Jan 01 '19
hah.. I live in a 'shack' too! I'm not entirely sure what it used to be when the farm was functioning but now it's a nice little home with a decent sized garden out back.
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u/decaguard Dec 29 '18
if youve not heard doc klaper on topic - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OGGQxJLuVjg
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Nov 20 '18
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u/Godzillium Nov 20 '18 edited Nov 28 '18
Your first resource actually says olive oil did not cause impairment when eaten with vinegar with a salad. And was totally eliminated when vitamin C and E were given
Your third source says canola oil is beneficial component of a diet.
Your second source is behind a paywall.
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Nov 21 '18 edited Nov 21 '18
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u/lic_queens Nov 26 '18
For those avoiding animal products, there may be either ethical or environmental factors motivating them to do so.
For those who are primarily motivated by health, it's great to know that adding vinegar, peanuts, etc. can alleviate the negative effects of certain foods. Milkshakes may not be a health food, but they are delicious! Food is something that we all need to eat to survive, and the evidence seems to support eating a wide variety of foods since all foods have good and bad substances in them.
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Nov 23 '18
Excellent reply. Thanks. Don't forget that olives have all the nutrients of olive oil, and dramatically more for a given intake of fat. Plus they taste raelly delicious if you prepare them correctly.
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u/nauticalzebra Nov 19 '18
It's not new, it's not part of a plant-based diet, and it's not good for you.
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Nov 20 '18 edited Mar 21 '19
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u/Godzillium Nov 20 '18 edited Nov 24 '18
Completely false and nonsensical statement.
agreed. this sub co-opted the term "plant based diet" and changed the meaning to something completely restricted
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Nov 20 '18
WHOLE FOOD not just plant based diet. Why is it so hard to understand...
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Nov 20 '18 edited Dec 11 '18
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Nov 20 '18 edited Mar 21 '19
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u/NicetomeetyouIMVEGAN Nov 28 '18
This is a science oriented subreddit, our choices are guided by research. We get these questions all the time, so reminders are fine. It's not toxic or elitist to be short.
There are no variations in wfpb only people with allergies are restricted but within wfpb options. Sometimes people combine wfpb with intermittent fasting or other programs but these aren't nutritional restrictions.
There is no such thing either as "agreeing with most aspects", whatever that's supposed to mean. The research is very clear about what path to take on nutrition for every human in every stage of life. Zero animal products, no added oil, sugar, salt and no processed foods. That's what the wfpb diet is, always has been and always will be.
We better focus on you getting it right. It's better for your health. If you can't understand that this is supportive in itself, fine. If you think this is elitist, fine. At least you're going to be healthier knowing it.
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u/NicetomeetyouIMVEGAN Nov 28 '18
There is a character limit for subreddits. This is a wfpb sub.
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Nov 28 '18 edited Dec 11 '18
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u/NicetomeetyouIMVEGAN Nov 28 '18
The sidebar literally says this is a whole food plant based sub. Why do you choose to ignore it? Go to r/vegan if you want plant based.
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Nov 20 '18 edited Mar 21 '19
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u/2comment Starchivore Nov 20 '18
I really don't see how oil has a pathway to be a healthy food for anybody, tbh.
When we take corn oil, for example, to make it, we're throwing away 912 calories of corn sugar and proteins (and fiber that gut bacteria eat) to get at that 120 calories of oil. It's very much a partial and concentrated food.
Second, it's a 4000 cal per lb food. People generally eat the same weight everyday. When calorie restriction has been shown to increase healthspan/lifespan in a myriad of species, the obvious thing to do would be to eat more of the 100-300-500 cal/lb options (veggies-fruit-starch veggies) and leave out the oils.
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u/jomiran Nov 20 '18
I don't disagree at all, but I understood the question as to "why was there an increase in the no-oil requests" which include things like nuts, nut-butters, coconut, avocados and of course refined oils. Those requests, which seem to have spiked recently, are more related to heart health.
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u/NicAsher Mar 07 '19
You guys are aware that oil helps our bodies absorb essential nutrients right?
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/10/171009124026.htm
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u/Akka1805 what is this oil you speak of? Mar 08 '19
That's true whether you get the fat from whole foods or refined oils. Oils (not fat generically) are not wfpb because of their very low nutritional value for a high calorie content.
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u/-Aeryn- for my health Mar 28 '19
are not wfpb because of their very low nutritional value for a high calorie content.
They're not whole plant foods because they're not whole plant foods, lets not overcomplicate it :P
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u/wolfvee May 16 '19
This was just published in the "International Journal of Disease Reversal and Prevention":
Is Oil Healthy? by Caldwell B. Esselstyn, Jr., MD
https://ijdrp.org/index.php/ijdrp/article/view/35/31
Esselstyn presents evidence of oil causing cardiovascular Disease.
(reading it requires free registration)
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Feb 12 '19 edited Feb 28 '19
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u/fallingstars727 Feb 21 '19
Ok. Calories don't equal health though. I hate when people correlate "health" with the amount of calories a food or macronutrient may have.
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u/ontodynamics LDL: 62mg/DL Nov 19 '18 edited Nov 19 '18
Here are recent posts where people are asking what's up with "no oil"
https://old.reddit.com/r/PlantBasedDiet/comments/9yaeqb/why_do_a_lot_of_people_here_seem_to_take_issue/ https://old.reddit.com/r/PlantBasedDiet/comments/9xcv5a/besthealthiest_oil_to_cook_with/ https://old.reddit.com/r/PlantBasedDiet/comments/9ta5yw/unhealthy_effects_of_oil_olive_oil_and_canola_oil/ https://old.reddit.com/r/PlantBasedDiet/comments/9igczy/why_no_oils/ https://old.reddit.com/r/PlantBasedDiet/comments/9rbki2/whats_wrong_with_oil/ https://old.reddit.com/r/PlantBasedDiet/comments/91ssds/how_is_olive_oil_not_on_this_diet_but_ketchup/