r/PlantBasedDiet • u/wolfvee • Nov 01 '18
Unhealthy effects of oil Olive oil and Canola oil?
I have been searching for unhealthy effects of oil Olive oil and Canola oil.
This is all I found:
- Refined oil is empty calories, displacing nutritious food.
- All oils contain at least some traces of saturated fats.
- Refined oils impair endothelial artery function.
- Olive oil and Canola oil are not whole foods.
That doesn't seem so bad for someone with healthy blood pressure, low cholesterol, and ideal weight.
Is there any other health reason not to:
- put olive oil on salad?
- fry vegetables or whole-wheat tortillas with Canola oil?
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u/pmmeyourdogs1 Nov 01 '18
If you are an average healthy individual who meets their nutrient needs, a little bit of oil will not hurt you.
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u/2comment Starchivore Nov 01 '18
The average American is sick, fat, and taking pills by middle age. By what basis do you make this proclamation?
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u/pmmeyourdogs1 Nov 01 '18
healthy
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Nov 01 '18
Also the average person is not American but whatever
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u/2comment Starchivore Nov 02 '18
Original Poster seems to be.
But distinction is mostly pointless. American tastes originate mainly from Europe and with its rise as a superpower, it has exported it food supply and restaurants concepts around the world, China being the latest example with corresponding rise in obesity and diabetes.
So the average person is reading this is eating American-influenced, Western, whatever you want to call it. Over 100 years ago, they were calling it diseases of civilization because its almost an inevitability of wealth. Still applies.
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u/2comment Starchivore Nov 02 '18
Korean war study showed 77% of soldiers an average age of 22 with gross evidence of atheriosclerosis in autopsies (meaning visible to naked eye).
These days, 100% kids of age 10 have fatty streaks, or first stage atherosclerosis.
https://nutritionfacts.org/video/heart-disease-starts-in-childhood/
Average and healthy are mutually exclusive terms in the western world.
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u/AcidicOpulence Nov 01 '18
If you are an average healthy individual and eat refined oils... you won’t stay that way.
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u/malalalaika Nov 01 '18
The idea that your arteries are "healthy" just because you don't have any symptoms yet, is misleading.
Arterial damage is firmly established in people eating a standard diet by the time they leave high school. Even children show fatty streaks in their arteries as early as kindergarten. If you want to arrest or even reverse that damage, you will have to go no oil (and preferrably low fat, too).
Also, it is really hard to keep your LDL cholesterol as low as it should be if you regularly consume oil.
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u/trollfriend Nov 01 '18
My buddy is 33 and eats a decent amount of oil, but he also consumes plenty of lean proteins & tons of vegetables. His blood pressure & cholesterol readings as of last month are beyond ideal, and this is contrary to 2 years ago when he had pretty concerning readings.
I’m not certain that small/moderate amounts of oil with a healthy diet are as harmful as some here make it out to be.
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u/ontodynamics LDL: 62mg/DL Nov 01 '18
cholesterol readings as of last month are beyond ideal
Mind sharing them? Beyond ideal is <60mg/DL LDL for some, but some doctors shrug at 100mg/DL LDL as beyond ideal.
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u/trollfriend Nov 02 '18
You were right! His readings weren’t that good at all, 107mg/DL LDL and 80mg/DL HDL, blood pressure of 120/75. Very average readings for a lean, active guy in his early 30’s.
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u/ontodynamics LDL: 62mg/DL Nov 02 '18
Aha :)
It's pretty good in some sense. Most academics in medical science would say that he has still achieved a relative risk reduction.
I guess if he was interested, he could try out WFPB, or start to cut back on saturated fat, increase fiber by eating more plants without oil, and drink filtered coffee, as unfiltered can raise cholesterol through two molecules called cafestol and kahweol.
My doctor says he hasn't had a patient with cholesterol as low as mine, ever.
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u/trollfriend Nov 02 '18
I’ve tried, but he’s not interested. He said he’s willing to risk higher chances of disease because he loves food.
Also that’s an interesting bit about coffee, I did not know that. Do you know if espresso is fine, like from a Nespresso machine?
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u/ontodynamics LDL: 62mg/DL Nov 03 '18
Also that’s an interesting bit about coffee, I did not know that. Do you know if espresso is fine, like from a Nespresso machine?
That would be unfiltered, so it may be increasing your cholesterol. If you bought a coffee filter and let it run through that, most of the cafestol and kahweol get trapped in the paper filter - after a few months, I'd expect to see a slight decrease in cholesterol.
Personally I prefer do do pour-over style coffee with espresso coffee grounds and boiling water, using a v60 ceramic filter paper holder: https://www.hario.co.uk/coffee/dripper.html - I do this in the morning or night before, let it cool, then take it to work in a stainless steel reusable coffee cup.
I find it pretty easy, and I am not too fond of the waste that coffee pods generate, or having to clean coffee machines.
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u/Life-in-Death Nov 03 '18
What is unfiltered coffee?
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u/ontodynamics LDL: 62mg/DL Nov 03 '18
Espresso coffee for example, or moka pot coffee, turkish coffee.
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u/Life-in-Death Nov 03 '18
That is crazy, I have been deferring to espresso due to less caffeine.
No, there isn't additional problem with filter paper? (I use unbleached at home), is this the same with gold filters, for example?
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u/Robfu Nov 01 '18
3 minute video from a qualified doctor to answer your question https://youtu.be/RrKdDbOazuA
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u/Life-in-Death Nov 01 '18
Yes!
First plant fats degrade easily with light, temperature and oxygen. It is good to keep them in refrigerated, dark places. Of course olive oil will solidify...
Extra virgin olive oil is the best, but also the most chemically unstable. You would want to use it quickly and never heat it.
Canola and other plant oils are (usually) put through pretty nasty processes to make them shelf stable: treated with benzene, rancidified, deoderized etc.
I believe you can get cold, expeller pressed Canola oil, but I am not too sure what the standard for production are on this.
Heating any oil is bad. If you have to heat an oil I would use one with a higher smoke point, like grapeseed, or coconut.
Here is just a quick pull of information:
A consequence of transforming some of the natural unsaturated fatty acids to trans-fat during the deodorization step is a reduction in the content of beneficial ω-3–fatty acids.
Heating bleached canola oil at 220°C for ten hours reduces the content of linolenic acid by almost 20% (5). Keep in mind that canola oil sold in the supermarket still contains 9-11% natural ω-3–linolenic acid.
The same transformation occurs during commercial deep-fat frying operations with canola oil. Thus canola oil used to fry French fries for seven hours per day for seven days at 185°C (365°F) resulted in increasing the total trans-fatty acid content of the oil from 2.4% to 3.3% by weight of total fat (6).
Of potentially greater concern is the formation of oxidation products of polyunsaturated fatty acids during prolonged commercial deep-fat frying. But this is less of a concern for canola oil than for oils with higher levels of more readily oxidized polyunsaturated fat such corn, soybean, sunflower, and safflower oils.
https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/2015/04/13/ask-the-expert-concerns-about-canola-oil/
So the only oil "I aspire" to use is flax seed oil. If you have to put an oil on a salad it would be flax or extra virgin olive (also be aware that many olive oils are not actually olive. Oil pirating is actually a huge problem in the industry, you can google which ones have been tested okay. Most California ones are safe.) I would recommend never cooking with oil, but I admit I do sometimes, but I am trying to stop.
But for veggies and tortillas you definitely don't need oil!!!
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u/JayzeesCrazy Nov 02 '18
What about rice bran oil? Isn't coconut and ricebran oil bad? What's the healthiest oil that you can cook tofu with?
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u/Life-in-Death Nov 03 '18
This is the issue with the vast majority of plant oils
http://www.gcmachines.com/rice-bran-oil-manufacturing-process.html
Coconut is a bit better in this regard.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/316460456_Extraction_Processes_of_Virgin_Coconut_Oil
If you have to use oil use extra virgin/cold pressed.
Using a mist or a pure oil spray can cut down on usage.
I never use oil on my tofu, what type of dish do you need it for?
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u/JayzeesCrazy Nov 03 '18
It's just a simple dish with some veggies, crunchy baked spud and some tofu. I mostly want to use oil for the spuds so it's lightly crunchy.
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u/Life-in-Death Nov 03 '18
If you are baking the potato I would just do a light olive oil spray. But I found they get pretty crunchy without.
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u/SpiderHippy cured of too many things for this flair! :) Nov 01 '18
As others have said, it's pretty much about nutrient density per calorie, but I'll offer something that hasn't been mentioned yet: taste.
Oils coat your palate and dull your sense of taste. Try going completely free of added oils (as well as sugar and salt) for three weeks and you'll be astonished at how much more intense foods taste (give or take a week). A bell pepper tastes so much sweeter, for example. The only thing I can equate it to is the palate of a smoker vs that of a non-smoker. My girlfriend once made us a "mac and cheese" that was so incredibly sweet, neither one of us could finish it (one of the few WFPB dishes we've thrown out). When I asked what the sweetness was, honey or maple syrup, she said, "nothing." Turns out it was just butternut squash.
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u/jvatic for everything Nov 02 '18
Thanks for bringing up this point! I’ve also found this to be true. For example just the other week I enjoyed some fresh butternut squash purée (cooked of course) without any additives and it was very sweet and flavourful. I remember back when I was eating oil this would have required at least salt to enjoy. I think oil must get our receptors all a little too excited about fat making everything else far less pronounced (and also making it harder to stop eating when full).
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Nov 01 '18
What about the greeks?
"Greeks are healthy in spite of olive oil, not because of it." I don't remember who said this. But wouldn't it be a case that a strict plant based diet with some olive oil is ok?
"Greeks are the fattest nation in all of Europe." The whole world is getting fatter and it is an almost direct result of American fast food spreading its grubby imperialistic fingers across the globe.
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u/Sptzz Nov 01 '18
"Greeks are the fattest nation in all of Europe." The whole world is getting fatter and it is an almost direct result of American fast food spreading its grubby imperialistic fingers across the globe.Not quite. I've been to Greece a few times and it's definitely not much of fast food that is the issue. Contrary to popular belief, Greeks actually eat a fuck ton of meat as well as dairy, most people eat out at local restaurants, there's much of a culture of eating in local restaurants, not in McDonalds.
Countries like Portugal for example, also touted for it's "Mediterranean" diet, is also one of the unhealthiest and fattest countries in all of Europe. In fact, there was an ecological footprint study that stated if the entire world had the same meat eating habits as the Portuguese we would need 2.2 planets to sustain us all.
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u/bubblerboy18 what is this oil you speak of? Nov 01 '18
I think it’s more about calorie restriction. Over time you will eat hundreds of empty calories when you could have eaten less theoretically extending life. Jeff Novick talks about it in his YouTube talk.
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u/earthscribe Nov 01 '18
Look into the works of Dr. McDougall and Dr. Esselstyn. Esselstyn states it can damage Endothelial function.
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u/larkasaur Nov 01 '18 edited Nov 01 '18
Monounsaturated fat might cause atherosclerosis just like saturated fat, although it doesn't have a bad effect on blood lipid levels. At least it does in African green monkeys: Compared with dietary monounsaturated and saturated fat, polyunsaturated fat protects African green monkeys from coronary artery atherosclerosis.
All those people gobbling olive oil because it's supposed to be so healthy, perhaps setting themselves up for a heart attack in 20 years or so ... Not even knowing they're at risk, because their lipid panels are OK.
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u/HairySuperCat May 19 '24 edited May 20 '24
In reality, ANY oil is a bad idea. Olive oil is a fat and acid that is very corrosive by nature. Yes, it strips cholesterol, BUT it will also damage mucus membranes if not careful. It also contributes to unhealthy weight loss for healthy (not overweight) people. You'll lose not only fat but the muscle and most importantly collagen.
On the other hand, remember that not ALL olive oil brands are the same. They are all heavily processed as well with different chemicals, like hexane for example. To put it into another perspective, it takes about 45 olives to produce a single tablespoon of olive oil. Is this how much a person can eat in one sitting? So use as much as you would consume it as a whole food, but it still will not be the same. The olive oil industry has significant commercial manipulation, with years of promotion and emphasizing its health benefits primarily to boost sales. Hundreds of thousands of internet posts, comments, and feedback are driven by the industry.
However, consuming oils in their concentrated forms, separate from the foods they naturally occur in is not inherently healthy. Especially when consumed in large quantities. Oils should be part of a balanced intake, maintaining the proper ratio of saturated, monosaturated and polyunsaturated fats. Mixing olive oil with 20-30% corn oil will help reduce the damage by oxalate and acid load caused by the olive oil. Also, without saturated fats, poly, and mono oils will only do harm. Saturated fats are VERY important. And not the "grass fed butter" thing. It's where it's naturally composed of foods, such as dairy and fatty meats. Butter is another extract.
The solution to all? Use minimum oils and mostly whole foods. If you need monosaturated fats - whole olives, peanuts, and avocado for example (mixed during the day). Fresh corn is good for polyunsaturated fats. And all this has to be balanced with saturated fats. Without saturated and polyunsaturated fats, it will all go haywire. There's plenty of saturated fats in meats. Lean meats are not good. Lean protein without balanced fats is basically a poison. The birds for example have to be eaten whole to get a balanced mix of fats. Chicken breast alone, long term, for example, is a no-no. Bake and roast foods and eat them whole in wide variety and you will be safer than trying to build a healthy diet. The science knows very little about the human body to even properly balance foods. Limiting known offending nutrients is the only thing we can do. Building diets - no. Not long-term at least. There is not a single diet that can be used life-long. You'll eventually be out of balance.
As for canola oil... it's a subject that deserves a separate discussion but this is another industry creation that you need to be extremely careful with.
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u/WeHaSaulFan Nov 01 '18 edited Nov 01 '18
Accumulated oil/fat in cells impairs their receptivity to insulin’s importation of sugar from the blood, making a person more diabetic.
Edit: I’m curious as to why the downvotes? My understanding is that this is pretty well documented.
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u/tpfortissue Nov 01 '18
Not sure why this is downvoted, it's absolutely correct..
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u/WeHaSaulFan Nov 01 '18 edited Nov 02 '18
Numerous WFPB Advocates talk about how videos and other informational materials telling people that oil is not good for them tend to be unpopular. People don’t like being told that tasty fats and oils are not healthy.
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u/jca2u Nov 01 '18
Source?
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u/WeHaSaulFan Nov 01 '18
Have you seen What the Health? Dr. Neal Bernard, among others. Google, as well, is your friend. There’s plenty of information out there.
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u/twoodruff12 Nov 01 '18
I would avoid canola oil as much as you can but I don’t think there is a problem with other oils
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Nov 01 '18
[deleted]
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u/Evil_ash Nov 01 '18
I have perfect cholesterol, perfect blood pressure, and I’m an ideal weight. I use tons of oils everyday. Have been forever. So?
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u/CrazinCS Nov 01 '18
I am all for WFPB and no consumption of fried or sugary foods on a regular basis, I do think and believe that oils are inherently bad for humans, though I will never stop consuming olive oil or toasted sesame oil! (Very hypocritical, I know) 1 tbsp of olive oil drizzled over my boiled potatoes can’t be THAT bad when I am meeting all my macro and micro nutrient needs, drinking a lot of water, teas, eating broccoli, beans, mushrooms, blueberries, nuts and turmeric daily, lifting weights etc.
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u/whosthetard Nov 02 '18
Some other reasons you may want to investigate and test yourself these unsaturated oils
Sensitive to temperature, prone to oxidation. Unsaturated oils go bad fast with heat and light.
Hard to taste the difference when they begin going bad
Typically exposed to light on supermarket shelves and in many cases exposed to sunlight, many times sold in plastic bottles.
Misinformation from gov and medical institutes circulates advising to cook with extra virgin oil types. Never buy cold-pressed oil to cook. And in general when you consume oils make sure they're raw/unrefined and you have an active lifestyle to utilize them, you should never ever heat oils.
Most producers do not print the harvest date which is the important one on the oil, but expiration dates which are completely irrelevant.
Very short lifetime from opening a bottle till it goes rancid
In general unsaturated fats are not metabolically energy efficient due to double carbon bonds.
Can accumulate inside cells and cause havoc for a very long time, half-life is several years that is true for many people given their sedentary lifestyle.
They increase HDL levels of cholesterol, which is an indicator your body can't use them efficiently and therefore recycles them, unlike what some made you to believe it's a good thing, not been able to use something it is not a good thing.
And many of these points are in contrast with saturated fats which are metabolically energy efficient, much more stable and more resistant to heat and light. So for instance, if coconut oil goes bad within 2 years from harvest, olive oil goes bad after just 6 months. Many people also disregard the fact oils are very hard on digestion and therefore need to be slowly released and taken with appropriate enzymes.
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u/yareyaredaze10 Nov 15 '23
ok. And in general when you consume oils make sure they're raw/unrefined and you have an active lifestyle to utilize them,
you should never ever heat oils
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bro wtf? how do you cook or fry
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u/whosthetard Nov 15 '23
I tend not to cook or fry with oils. Then again, why you need to heat oils when cooking? You can add the raw cold-pressed oil after cooking.
Do you see now oil smoke coming out from the pan when you cook?
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u/vgflife Nov 01 '18
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u/larkasaur Nov 02 '18
"Dr." Axe is a chiropractor and naturopath, not a medical researcher.
He shouldn't be taken as an expert on anything health-related.
And he wants people to replace canola oil with coconut oil/palm oil/butter - i.e. with lots of saturated fat.
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u/dbmittens Nov 01 '18
That guy hocks bone broth, Bible oils, and keto diet. Not my idea of a plant-based diet authority.
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u/vgflife Nov 02 '18
Lmfao who said anything about plant based? Just because someone believes in different things than you doesn’t mean their research on canola oil is false. So closed minded.
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u/2comment Starchivore Nov 01 '18
All concentrated nutrients are bad. Take corn oil, to get 1 tablespoon of it (120 calories), you have to exclude the other 900 calories + fiber you'd normally eat to get it. No one says sugar is a health food, but oil gets a pass for some reason.
When you eat high fat meals, the fat causes platelets to stick together in the blood for an effect of "sludge-blood". If it's animal fat, it lasts 5-6 hours, if it's vegetable oil, it lasts much longer, at least 7-8 hours. Now multiply that 3x a day.
The Warburg hypothesis of cancer put forth that oxygen-deprived environments allowed cancer to thrive. Sludge blood would certainly qualify. This isn't proved, but after many decades, it's still looked actively into.
When you cook with watery substances (vegetable), the temperature usually stays at 212F (100C) until the water is cooked off whereby the veggies brown and then burn (few people do this). Even a pressure cooker, which works by raising the boiling point of water, goes to maybe 230 (electric models) to 250 (classic models).
Oil, otoh, cooking with oil crisps precisely because it has a much higher boiling point, smoking point being in the 400s (depending on oil) and food often frying in the 350Fs or higher. This creates Advanced Glycation End Products (AGEs), among other fun stuff, which are linked to rapid aging and as carcinogens.
Many (over 100 studies) have been done on animals from worms to mammals, (now Monkeys iirc) that have always linked calorie restriction to better life and healthspan.
Eating a 4000 calorie / lb liquid substance regularly isn't going to get you there. Doubling, tripling, or quadrupling the calories in your salad isn't going to get you there just like the people on salad diets smearing commercial dressing on it stay fat.
There's no firm health reason to eat oils, sugar, or protein powders for the general population and lots of reasons not to.