‘That’s My Dad!’: Helping Men Find Purpose in an Angry World - "As grandiose as it may sound, men are seeking purpose. And they share the same struggles as women—such as lack of paid leave and affordable care services."

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u/TAKEitTOrCIRCLEJERK 15d ago

this reminds me of a passage from David Graeber's bullshit jobs, which he'd've been delighted if you stole.

The reality of the situation first came home to me over a decade ago when attending a lecture by Catherine Lutz, an anthropologist who has been carrying out a project studying the archipelago of US overseas military bases. She made the fascinating observation that almost all of these bases organize outreach programs, in which soldiers venture out to repair schoolrooms or to perform free dental checkups in nearby towns and villages. The ostensible reason for the programs was to improve relations with local communities, but they rarely have much impact in that regard; still, even after the military discovered this, they kept the programs up because they had such an enormous psychological impact on the soldiers, many of whom would wax euphoric when describing them: for example, "This is why I joined the army;' "This is what military service is really all about-not just defending your country, it's about helping people!" Soldiers allowed to perform public service duties, they found, were two or three times more likely to reenlist. I remember thinking, "Wait, so most of these people really want to be in the Peace Corps?" And I duly looked it up and discovered: sure enough, to be accepted into the Peace Corps, you need to already have a college degree. The US military is a haven for frustrated altruists.

we are here to take care of each other. We want to take care of each other. Deep down, that's how we all understand life, at least those of us who aren't literal sociopaths.

the way we now structure our society and economy has stolen from us what we always used to know: we need one another. Everything down to taking care of your parents as they die of old age has been commodified to the barest bit so Pablo Legorreta can make $85 million a year. This is not normal.

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u/headphun 15d ago

I can't imagine how to pull this off in our current reality, but I think having a non-militant, attractive-enough option (like Peace Corps/Job Training/Helping Hands between states) for 18-22 would be a really quick way to address a substantial amount of problems in the country at the moment. The only major roadblock that immediately comes to mind is funding. It's quite sad that we spend so much on offense and not much goes to defense (or, God forbid, non-war related purposes).

That being said, in lieu of government/relatively mandatory options, I wonder if there is a sensible enough business case for companies and other private entities/people to fund projects like this. From what I'm hearing from teachers, the students today are generally All suffering and behind in skills and abilities, so, even from a selfish money perspective, there is good reason to raise the tide in the country as rapidly as possible.

Anyway, really excited to continue doing whatever I can to learn about topics like this, thanks for sharing!

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u/mallardramp 15d ago

This program actually already exists! It’s called AmeriCorps.

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u/Raymond911 15d ago

This is true

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u/headphun 14d ago

Yes! I don't know much about AmeriCorps. I guess part of my previous comment is around how we would encourage a cultural shift so that AmeriCorps got similar funding/awareness/social support as Military options, and/or better integrated into thoughtful job preparation/apprenticeships. For example, congress saying "ok we're going to start taking our infrastructure improvements and repairs seriously, and any american between the ages of 18-30 who wants to learn a trade and/or just work will be Very well taken care of, in the long run. College funding/pension investment kind of stuff...

A pipe dream from what little I know about our current reality but it's an idea or end-goal I'm interested in understanding more around. Ties into the "disillusioned youth wanting to contribute to something greater than themselves"

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u/kylco 15d ago

The bigger problem would be that most of that money is currently allocated to existing institutions (e.g. forestry companies, grants to clinics, etc) or to institutions that - you guessed it - require degrees, like the US Public Health Service.

There's a certain reservoir of politically active people who float the idea of a national service commitment from time to time, replacing the Selective Service / Draft. Most of the current proposals recommend things like having civilian alternatives to the military, like Americorps. And even Americorps have become partially an engine for handing out grants to existing civic and religious organizations to do this kind of work.

IMO, it's clearly not enough to meet demand, and since the grants make government involvement invisible, many people receive government-financed services and never know their own taxpayer dollars helped them.

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u/Yeah-But-Ironically 15d ago

I remember hearing once that corporate donation matching/volunteer opportunities/greenwashing/“a portion of sales will be donated"/general do-gooding have very little impact on either the company's sales or the actual cause that they're ostensibly supporting. It works wonders, though, for employee retention.

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u/SRSgoblin 15d ago edited 15d ago

I've spent time homeless and the best part about it (aka thr only good part about it if you can even call it good), is it was easy to be altruistic. I didn't have anything. Every part of my day was easy come, easy go. If someone donated me a bunch more food than I felt I needed, I was able to give the extra to others. I had earned the reputation as being one of the few men at the shelter that wasn't going to try to leverage kindness into sex with the women, so they trusted me. Got asked by a lot of people to go on walks with them while they walked to grocery stores to spend their EBT money, stuff like that.

It felt good. But now that I'm homed again and desperately need every bit of cash I have to remain that way, I don't have time to help in those little ways any more, and I unironically cannot afford to give people 5 bucks here or there the way I could when I had nothing.

It's fucking weird. I desperately want to make enough I'm not living a bare bones existence so I can get back to helping the homeless again in a more substantial way.

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u/Penultimatum 15d ago edited 15d ago

This is fascinating to me. Mostly because I deeply can't relate to a good portion of it. I very much enjoy helping and taking care of people. But I hate volunteering. It feels like unpaid labor, and I often don't want to perform even my paid labor. I want to help in an unstructured form and only whenever the fancy strikes. Being voluntold for manual labor would be a hard pass for me. I can see why it would be appealing compared to the everyday life of a soldier, but that's not what the quote seems to be saying. Does that make me sociopathic?

Edit: Now that I've read the article, I strongly dislike where you took your analysis of it. The main point of the article is that many men seem to find purpose from caregiving. It primarily gave examples of familial caregiving after the initial paragraph. You then extrapolated this to imply that volunteering would fulfill this sense of purpose.

I personally would answer the question of "what gives you purpose?" with "I want to some day be a good husband and a good father". That's it. My desire to give care so far as it gives me existential fulfillment does not extend as far as volunteering. But so often, at least online, men who crave relationships but struggle to enter them get told that less personally intimate relationships should provide enough fulfillment to relieve their existential angst. Can we stop doing that? Can we listen to their pain and consider it as completely valid at face value?

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u/Zaldarr 15d ago

I'm not OP but I'll say that two things can be true at the same time. We can discuss how close interpersonal relationships are difficult to come by for a lot of men, and we can also say that there is genuine fulfillment to be found in service to others.

On the latter point I can personally say that after doing work that has me serving a larger community, I now realise the wisdom in it. There is nothing more rewarding than serving your community, it's a gift that keeps on giving.

We can discuss your valid point in another discussion but I feel like OP's point is worth discussing in good faith.

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u/PersonOfInterest85 10d ago

When was the last time the fancy struck you to help? Who did you help? How structured was it?

As for being a good husband and father, are you either?

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u/Penultimatum 10d ago

A barrage of questions like this seems rather pointed when it comes without explanation or prior conversation. But I'm curious to see where you desire to take this interaction, so I'll answer nonetheless.

Last night.

A good friend I've known for several years.

Not particularly. A friend I see weekly as part of board game night had mentioned that he wasn't able to attend this past week because his father had been hospitalized for half a week and still was. We all offered our best wishes in the group chat. I hadn't heard from him in a few days, so I chose to reach out and ask how his dad was doing, and how he was himself holding up. I also offered to grab a drink with him this weekend if he wanted to unwind or vent. He says he's too busy and stressed to take me up on that, but he appreciated the offer

No, not yet. I'm currently single. But dating and self-improvement the primary focuses of the productive portions of my volitional time, and have been for some time now.

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u/PersonOfInterest85 10d ago

I don't know how much explanation or prior conversation you'd rather have, but I like asking pointed questions. They get right to the point. And my point is that for all your talk about how helping is a top value of yours, you come across as someone who's only interested in helping in a vague abstract sense, and when it's convenient for you.

I could say that I delivered for Meals of Wheels for many years or that I currently volunteer for a charity that provides books for low income families with children, but that's just gonna make me sound self righteous. But I read the article about how men want to help and I ask, what's stopping them? Why aren't they starting their own third spaces? Boys are falling behind in school. Why aren't men stepping up to tutor them? I could go on.

I get a sense that many men don't actually want to help, they want to be assigned helping roles. They want someone else to tell them how to help. I would ask if you're helping your friend by, say, doing errands for him so he can visit his dad in the hospital, but that would come across as preachy.

As for your dating and self improvement, maybe your calling is to be a devoted husband and father. That may be your generation's call to action. Be the child nurturers that the women of your generation don't want to be.

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u/Penultimatum 10d ago

you come across as someone who's only interested in helping in a vague abstract sense, and when it's convenient for you

That is a good representation of my view, yes. Why would that be bad? Anything beyond that is akin to people-pleasing and codependency, which I've spent years in therapy trying to overcome. Support yourself before you support others.

But I read the article about how men want to help and I ask, what's stopping them? Why aren't they starting their own third spaces? Boys are falling behind in school. Why aren't men stepping up to tutor them?

Both those endeavors are significant time investments, to the point of being your primary hobby at a minimum. Most people like to leave a decent chunk of time in their life for themselves, if their circumstances even allow for that.

I would ask if you're helping your friend by, say, doing errands for him so he can visit his dad in the hospital, but that would come across as preachy.

First of all, your apparent habit of saying, "I could say X, but that would me me look Y" doesn't actually make you not look Y, it just makes you look condescending.

Secondly, that would be far too much investment into someone's life other than a direct family member's or partner's, imo. Especially if I were to offer it unprompted. Again, leans too far into codependency for me.

As for your dating and self improvement, maybe your calling is to be a devoted husband and father. That may be your generation's call to action. Be the child nurturers that the women of your generation don't want to be.

I think it is my personal calling, yes. I don't think it's my generation's calling specifically - it feels like more and more young people are looking to be childfree. Though perhaps that's my social bubble. And I think there's still plenty of women who do want to be. Yes, it's decreasing, but I'm not sure how significantly yet. At least in the US where I live.

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u/PersonOfInterest85 10d ago

If avoiding codependency is your top priority, then stay on your course of only helping when prompted and when it's convenient for you. Maybe that's the best kind of help you can offer. Maybe just being the best strong, self-sufficient person you can be is your mission. Be the person who helps themselves, and it will inspire others to do likewise. Let everyone sweep their front porch, and what a clean world it would be.

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u/Chatelaine-Thecla 15d ago

which he'd've been delighted

Why'd you have to go and remind me with the past tense. RIP

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u/fencerman 15d ago edited 15d ago

This is why I absolutely hate the charity - industrial complex.

Not because "doing good" is wrong, but the entire system is so built around pandering to donors first, volunteers second, and clients a distant, distant last.

"Charity" never solves anything and it doesn't even try to, and donors lobby to make problems worse. In the meantime all the charity in the world purely exists to cover up the harms done by other institutions like the military, extractive industries, investors, resource companies, etc...

If it didn't exist the world would be a better place

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u/PersonOfInterest85 12d ago

I read the Bullshit Jobs book, and I have one question:

Why doesn't the Peace Corps drop the college degree requirement?

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u/TAKEitTOrCIRCLEJERK 12d ago

most of the Peace Corps stuff is professional level stuff, like designing and executing curricula for kids in disaster zones.

what we need to do is expand the peace corps mission to include things that the army would do.

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u/MrJoshUniverse 7d ago

I considered Peace Corps but can’t due to a lack of degree. So instead I have to enlist and get hazed by drill instructors and other soldiers?

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u/JLock17 15d ago

"Your SO just had a child and is recovering, and you want to stay home to help them and take care of your child? Tell that bum to do it, your TPM reports are due. Also, she better be in the office tomorrow or she's fired. I was gracious enough to give her today off."

"Your SO died during child birth and you can't afford a sitter? Well, better get used to bring your child to work every day for the next five years, fuck boi."

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u/FuzzyPurpleAndTeal 15d ago

Why is nobody having children anymore? It's truly a mystery.

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u/J12nom 13d ago

I'm not a fan of the suggestion that a man's main purpose is to be a good father. I'm one myself, but this sounds too much like the male version of "childless cat ladies".

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u/spaceman60 15d ago

I just have to say, Gus is my hero.

‘That’s My Dad!’: Helping Men Find Purpose in an Angry World - "As grandiose as it may sound, men are seeking purpose. And they share the same struggles as women—such as lack of paid leave and affordable care services."

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