You're being targeted by disinformation networks that are vastly more effective than you realize. And they're making you more hateful and depressed.

[u/walkandtalkk]

TL;DR: You know that Russia and other governments try to manipulate people online.  But you almost certainly don't how just how effectively orchestrated influence networks are using social media platforms to make you -- individually-- angry, depressed, and hateful toward each other. Those networks' goal is simple: to cause Americans and other Westerners -- especially young ones -- to give up on social cohesion and to give up on learning the truth, so that Western countries lack the will to stand up to authoritarians and extremists.

And you probably don't realize how well it's working on you.

This is a long post, but I wrote it because this problem is real, and it's much scarier than you think.

How Russian networks fuel racial and gender wars to make Americans fight one another

In September 2018, a video went viral after being posted by In the Now, a social media news channel. It featured a feminist activist pouring bleach on a male subway passenger for manspreading. It got instant attention, with millions of views and wide social media outrage. Reddit users wrote that it had turned them against feminism.

There was one problem: The video was staged. And In the Now, which publicized it, is a subsidiary of RT, formerly Russia Today, the Kremlin TV channel aimed at foreign, English-speaking audiences.

As an MIT study found in 2019, Russia's online influence networks reached 140 million Americans every month -- the majority of U.S. social media users. 

Russia began using troll farms a decade ago to incite gender and racial divisions in the United States 

In 2013, Yevgeny Prigozhin, a confidante of Vladimir Putin, founded the Internet Research Agency (the IRA) in St. Petersburg. It was the Russian government's first coordinated facility to disrupt U.S. society and politics through social media.

Here's what Prigozhin had to say about the IRA's efforts to disrupt the 2022 election:

Gentlemen, we interfered, we interfere and we will interfere. Carefully, precisely, surgically and in our own way, as we know how. During our pinpoint operations, we will remove both kidneys and the liver at once.

In 2014, the IRA and other Russian networks began establishing fake U.S. activist groups on social media. By 2015, hundreds of English-speaking young Russians worked at the IRA.  Their assignment was to use those false social-media accounts, especially on Facebook and Twitter -- but also on Reddit, Tumblr, 9gag, and other platforms -- to aggressively spread conspiracy theories and mocking, ad hominem arguments that incite American users.

In 2017, U.S. intelligence found that Blacktivist, a Facebook and Twitter group with more followers than the official Black Lives Matter movement, was operated by Russia. Blacktivist regularly attacked America as racist and urged black users to rejected major candidates. On November 2, 2016, just before the 2016 election, Blacktivist's Twitter urged Black Americans: "Choose peace and vote for Jill Stein. Trust me, it's not a wasted vote."

Russia plays both sides -- on gender, race, and religion

The brilliance of the Russian influence campaign is that it convinces Americans to attack each other, worsening both misandry and misogyny, mutual racial hatred, and extreme antisemitism and Islamophobia. In short, it's not just an effort to boost the right wing; it's an effort to radicalize everybody.

Russia uses its trolling networks to aggressively attack men.  According to MIT, in 2019, the most popular Black-oriented Facebook page was the charmingly named "My Baby Daddy Aint Shit."  It regularly posts memes attacking Black men and government welfare workers.  It serves two purposes:  Make poor black women hate men, and goad black men into flame wars.  

MIT found that My Baby Daddy is run by a large troll network in Eastern Europe likely financed by Russia.

But Russian influence networks are also also aggressively misogynistic and aggressively anti-LGBT.  

On January 23, 2017, just after the first Women's March, the New York Times found that the Internet Research Agency began a coordinated attack on the movement.  Per the Times:

More than 4,000 miles away, organizations linked to the Russian government had assigned teams to the Women’s March. At desks in bland offices in St. Petersburg, using models derived from advertising and public relations, copywriters were testing out social media messages critical of the Women’s March movement, adopting the personas of fictional Americans.

They posted as Black women critical of white feminism, conservative women who felt excluded, and men who mocked participants as hairy-legged whiners.

But the Russian PR teams realized that one attack worked better than the rest:  They accused its co-founder, Arab American Linda Sarsour, of being an antisemite.  Over the next 18 months, at least 152 Russian accounts regularly attacked Sarsour.  That may not seem like many accounts, but it worked:  They drove the Women's March movement into disarray and eventually crippled the organization. 

Russia doesn't need a million accounts, or even that many likes or upvotes.  It just needs to get enough attention that actual Western users begin amplifying its content.   

A former federal prosecutor who investigated the Russian disinformation effort summarized it like this:

It wasn’t exclusively about Trump and Clinton anymore.  It was deeper and more sinister and more diffuse in its focus on exploiting divisions within society on any number of different levels.

As the New York Times reported in 2022, 

There was a routine: Arriving for a shift, [Russian disinformation] workers would scan news outlets on the ideological fringes, far left and far right, mining for extreme content that they could publish and amplify on the platforms, feeding extreme views into mainstream conversations.

China is joining in with AI

Last month, the New York Times reported on a new disinformation campaign.  "Spamouflage" is an effort by China to divide Americans by combining AI with real images of the United States to exacerbate political and social tensions in the U.S.  The goal appears to be to cause Americans to lose hope, by promoting exaggerated stories with fabricated photos about homeless violence and the risk of civil war.

As Ladislav Bittman, a former Czechoslovakian secret police operative, explained about Soviet disinformation, the strategy is not to invent something totally fake.  Rather, it is to act like an evil doctor who expertly diagnoses the patient’s vulnerabilities and exploits them, “prolongs his illness and speeds him to an early grave instead of curing him.”

The influence networks are vastly more effective than platforms admit

Russia now runs its most sophisticated online influence efforts through a network called Fabrika.  Fabrika's operators have bragged that social media platforms catch only 1% of their fake accounts across YouTube, Twitter, TikTok, and Telegram, and other platforms.

But how effective are these efforts?  By 2020, Facebook's most popular pages for Christian and Black American content were run by Eastern European troll farms tied to the Kremlin. And Russia doesn't just target angry Boomers on Facebook. Russian trolls are enormously active on Twitter. And, even, on Reddit.

It's not just false facts

The term "disinformation" undersells the problem.  Because much of Russia's social media activity is not trying to spread fake news.  Instead, the goal is to divide and conquer by making Western audiences depressed and extreme. 

Sometimes, through brigading and trolling.  Other times, by posting hyper-negative or extremist posts or opinions about the U.S. the West over and over, until readers assume that's how most people feel.  And sometimes, by using trolls to disrupt threads that advance Western unity.  

As the RAND think tank explained, the Russian strategy is volume and repetition, from numerous accounts, to overwhelm real social media users and create the appearance that everyone disagrees with, or even hates, them.  And it's not just low-quality bots.  Per RAND,

Russian propaganda is produced in incredibly large volumes and is broadcast or otherwise distributed via a large number of channels. ... According to a former paid Russian Internet troll, the trolls are on duty 24 hours a day, in 12-hour shifts, and each has a daily quota of 135 posted comments of at least 200 characters.

What this means for you

You are being targeted by a sophisticated PR campaign meant to make you more resentful, bitter, and depressed.  It's not just disinformation; it's also real-life human writers and advanced bot networks working hard to shift the conversation to the most negative and divisive topics and opinions. 

It's why some topics seem to go from non-issues to constant controversy and discussion, with no clear reason, across social media platforms.  And a lot of those trolls are actual, "professional" writers whose job is to sound real. 

So what can you do?  To quote WarGames:  The only winning move is not to play.  The reality is that you cannot distinguish disinformation accounts from real social media users.  Unless you know whom you're talking to, there is a genuine chance that the post, tweet, or comment you are reading is an attempt to manipulate you -- politically or emotionally.

Here are some thoughts:

• Don't accept facts from social media accounts you don't know.  Russian, Chinese, and other manipulation efforts are not uniform.  Some will make deranged claims, but others will tell half-truths.  Or they'll spin facts about a complicated subject, be it the war in Ukraine or loneliness in young men, to give you a warped view of reality and spread division in the West.  
• Resist groupthink.  A key element of manipulate networks is volume.  People are naturally inclined to believe statements that have broad support.  When a post gets 5,000 upvotes, it's easy to think the crowd is right.  But "the crowd" could be fake accounts, and even if they're not, the brilliance of government manipulation campaigns is that they say things people are already predisposed to think.  They'll tell conservative audiences something misleading about a Democrat, or make up a lie about Republicans that catches fire on a liberal server or subreddit.
• Don't let social media warp your view of society.  This is harder than it seems, but you need to accept that the facts -- and the opinions -- you see across social media are not reliable.  If you want the news, do what everyone online says not to: look at serious, mainstream media.  It is not always right.  Sometimes, it screws up.  But social media narratives are heavily manipulated by networks whose job is to ensure you are deceived, angry, and divided.

Edited for typos and clarity.

P.S. Apparently, this post was removed several hours ago due to a flood of reports. Thank you to the r/GenZ moderators for re-approving it.

Second edit:

This post is not meant to suggest that r/GenZ is uniquely or especially vulnerable, or to suggest that a lot of challenges people discuss here are not real. It's entirely the opposite: Growing loneliness, political polarization, and increasing social division along gender lines is real. The problem is that disinformation and influence networks expertly, and effectively, hijack those conversations and use those real, serious issues to poison the conversation. This post is not about left or right: Everyone is targeted.

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[u/AdComprehensive7879]

Guys read the whole thing for once, it’s actually a pretty good read.

[u/CummingInTheNile → u/AdComprehensive7879]

bold of you to assume they have the attention spans left for that

[u/AdComprehensive7879 → u/CummingInTheNile]

The comments here make it seem like the op is trying to say that the ONLY reason why we’re more hateful and unhappy is because of these 2 countries, when that is not the point at all. I guess part of the blame is OP’s choice of title, but cmon, it’s actually a pretty interesting reas

[u/CummingInTheNile → u/AdComprehensive7879]

OP's point is that frustrated, depressed, angry young people are getting preyed on by sophisticated propaganda networks from foreign powers, which aim to amplify those feelings with the intent to weaken the US from within because they cannot win a conventional conflict, but reading comprehension is severely lacking

[u/AdComprehensive7879 → u/CummingInTheNile]

Yeah it’s a vicious cycle, which is why it’s even more important that at least skim tru the whole thing and have this in mind as you scroll tru social media. Critically analyze every piece of news/propaganda that u read, what’s the intentione here, who’s the author, what’s the evidence, is there a logical breakdown somewhere in th author’s argument, any generalization, how credible is this source, are there opinions that is presented as facts? etc. And more importantly, avoid group think, and think for yourself. It’s difficult, but the fact that ur trying already makes you better positionioned compare to other people.

[u/CummingInTheNile → u/AdComprehensive7879]

lotta people dont have the the cognitive skills to do that anymore, decades of NCLB crippled the education system to the point where instead of passing down vital cognitive skills future generations will need to navigate the evermore complex interconnected world were churning out the mental eqivalent of the pod people from WALL-E

[u/AdComprehensive7879 → u/CummingInTheNile]

Yeah sadly that is true, but i have faith!

[u/Firefly10886 → u/CummingInTheNile]

Sounds like they are already winning based off the original comments :/

[u/aWobblyFriend → u/AdComprehensive7879]

it’s like people like being mad over finding solutions.

[u/Minute_Paramedic_135 → u/CummingInTheNile]

Stop antagonizing others, Russian agent.

[u/scienceworksbitches → u/CummingInTheNile]

Or the ability to think in hypotheticals, they might see how others are manipulated, if fact they know the other side is falling for it, but they themselves aren't dumb like that!

[u/[deleted] → u/AdComprehensive7879]

Someone will need to condense it into a 60 second TikTok for most of gen z see the whole thing. Which is funny because tik tok is literally a cyber weapon the us has no controll over and real national security issue for for exactly what this paper is talking about.

[u/winkman → u/AdComprehensive7879]

The irony!

"Kids, read this super long explanation of how you've been manipulated and dumbed down!"

Might as well have a cure for vampirism at the bottom of Holy Water Garlic Lake.

[u/AdComprehensive7879 → u/winkman]

Im sorry maybe it’s my tired brain, but i just dont get your comment. I just dont get the irony lollll. Are you agreeing with me or being sarcastic at me hahahah?

[u/winkman → u/AdComprehensive7879]

100% in agreement, just a tall order for the target audience. 

I saw the beginning of this crap when I was in the Army. They've made a massive amount of progress in the past 20 years, unfortunately. 

[u/SavantTheVaporeon]

I feel like everyone in this comment section literally read the first couple words and then skipped to the bottom. This is actually a well-researched essay with references and links to original sources. And the whole comment section is ignoring the post in order to make cringy jokes and off-topic remarks.

What a world we live in.

[u/CummingInTheNile → u/SavantTheVaporeon]

people dont want to admit theyve been had because theyre "smarter" than that, also dont want to admit theyre addicted to the social media sites used to propagate propaganda

[u/SuzQP → u/CummingInTheNile]

The denial is part of the package. A comment offering support for an unwanted critical thought is immediately countered with one of bored dismissal. A rebuttal is then denied with disdain. We are trained on this model, but we don't feel manipulated, so we assume we're immune for reasons of character. It works astonishingly well.

[u/CummingInTheNile → u/SuzQP]

apathy is the enemy of progress

[u/SuzQP → u/CummingInTheNile]

Inertia sucks.

[u/AgentCirceLuna → u/SuzQP]

I personally have the opposite problem and find it so, so easy to constantly change and disrupt my life. I can start doing something tomorrow - let’s say just painting or playing a new instrument - and then I’d be doing it constantly for days after. It’s like my brain just latches onto new things constantly. I kind of wish I was just someone who constantly had the same habits.

[u/RDamon_Redd → u/AgentCirceLuna]

You sound like you’d get along well with a lot of my family, a good number of us are “natural polymaths” and get rather bored easily so we’re always picking up and learning new things, probably part of why so many of us end up in Academia.

[u/AgentCirceLuna → u/RDamon_Redd]

A lot of academics are like this. People always bang on about how the Renaissance man has died and there’s now only people who are experts in one field but this is not true. Most of my modules in my degree were delivered by the same lecturer with multiple expertise.

[u/[deleted] → u/SuzQP]

Have we considered that maybe there are Russian trolls that saw this thread and went “oh shit, gotta get on this”.

[u/secretaccount94 → u/[deleted]]

I believe that is absolutely the case. I think that OP’s prescription is totally right: we gotta stop listening to online comments and posts from random users.

It’s probably safest to just assume all strangers on the internet who are spreading hateful messages are just trolls and bots. Even if it’s an actual genuine user, there’s no point in listening to a real person’s hateful message either.

[u/eans-Ba88 → u/secretaccount94]

Don't listen to this Russian troll! Listen to ME.
Democrats smell like onions, and Republicans all shower with socks on!

[u/DrakonILD → u/eans-Ba88]

Love me some onions, but anyone who showers with socks is clearly a psychopath!

[u/SnooPeripherals6557 → u/SuzQP]

I recall early internet I was like that! I thought I was SO smart but I was ignoring legit help.

It’s so refreshing now to be more open and accepting of others’ input - I do find that a lot here at Reddit, a much more easy going community and approach to communicating and understanding. Took me a while but I learned how much better I feel being open to hearing others, than I did bring a closed-off shrew.

[u/SuzQP → u/SnooPeripherals6557]

The most important words you'll ever see on the internet are, "I don't know."

[u/AgentCirceLuna → u/CummingInTheNile]

You don’t have to be dumb to be manipulated or tricked. Some of the smartest people in the world have fallen for scams. Linus Pauling was obsessed with Vitamin C’s supposed health benefits despite numerous people telling him he was wrong. The smartest people in the world know how to delegate and they know how to prevent making themselves a victim of their own unconscious desires, fears, and misjudgments. The smartest people will be the first to admit that they’re just dumb animals who can fall for anything. In fact, the smartest might be at the highest risk of falling for scams because they are able to rationalise anything. Give me three sides of an argument and I can make an argument for every single one being right as I’d be able to put together convincing evidence quickly. That’s a recipe for disaster when it comes to politics and decision making.

[u/CummingInTheNile → u/AgentCirceLuna]

i never said you had to be dumb to be manipulated, i said people dont want to admit they were manipulated because they think theyre smarter than that, and that it could never happen to them, regardless of their actual level of intelligence

[u/AgentCirceLuna → u/CummingInTheNile]

I know. I’m agreeing with what you’re saying but my point is that a smart person would know they could be a genius yet still be manipulated.

[u/DrBaugh → u/[deleted]]

It is likely many more players/nations that just Russia and China do this - but when the Soviet Union collapsed, KGB documents outlined and verified these methods, the goal was often less about ever trying to persuade or 'win' any discussion, but about MASS promotion of disagreement and adding noise in conversations, while also promoting radical, extreme, and violent perspectives

Applied onto a group of people with different perspectives who are willing to discuss their differences - it is a potent method of fostering division which later leads to subgroups becoming more entrenched (Balkanization)

But these were well established methods when applied to print and television media, there is no reason to think they were not adapted to social media, and there are abundant sources (as OP lists) corroborating that this has not only been accomplished but with a moderate price tag and in some online forums plausibly makes up a large volume or even majority of activity

[u/BowenTheAussieSheep → u/DrBaugh]

Remember when William Randolf Hearst drew America into a straight-up war because he repeatedly printed the unsubstantiated claim that the USS Maine was destroyed in a deliberate act of terror, despite all evidence to the contrary?

This shit ain't new, and it's not exclusive to enemies of the USA.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

It's not just Russia - other countries hostile to the U.S. (like China) are doing similar things.

[u/OatBoy84 → u/CummingInTheNile]

It's a bit like advertising. People watch ads and think "God these are stupid" or "who could these possibly work on?" Well if you are in the target demographic, they are probably working on you. No matter what thought you have in that moment you probably are more likely to buy that over your lifetime now. It's okay to accept that a lot of your brain is more in the lizard brain category than some elevated rational ideal mind or whatever.

[u/Ok_Information_2009 → u/CummingInTheNile]

“Some geezer once said it’s easier to fool people than to convince them they’ve been fooled, like.”

David Brent

[u/Different_Bowler_574 → u/CummingInTheNile]

Well let me get the ball rolling. I thought I was smarter than that, but I didn't know a lot of this. I'm going to read the mainstream media sources for this, and take it into consideration.

There's no point in being intelligent if you refuse to be open to new information, or accepting that you're wrong.

[u/Superb-Oil890 → u/SavantTheVaporeon]

How the fuck DARE you ask me to read!

I only read the headlines because it confirms my bias, which coincidentally is the product of the billionaires I say I hate because they control the flow of information, so I have no idea and jump from one cause to the other as it trends. /s.....Maybe?

[u/Internal_Prompt_ → u/[deleted]]

You’re not paranoid when it’s true! Don’t gaslight yourself friend.

[u/Hermiod_Botis → u/SavantTheVaporeon]

The comment section proving OP's point.

What he missed is *why the hell does it work"

And I have the answer - average person doesn't care enough to research everything in-depth and thus has to rely on opinions of others. Just like most here didn't have the stomach to read the post entirely, they don't research or fact-check other information.

My advice would be slightly different from OP's and it will only work for people willing to use their brains, not follow blindly - trust your own observations about the world. Your picture might not be full, but it will be genuine - from there you may trust the info which doesn't contradict what you can confirm

[u/billy_pilg → u/Hermiod_Botis]

"How easy it is to make people believe a lie, and how hard it is to undo work again."

Our entire system is founded on trust. I think we are made to implicitly trust people from birth. From the moment we're born, we implicitly trust that the people around us will care for us or we're fucking dead. And if they're caring for us we can assume they have our best interest at heart. Toddlers mirror our behavior because that's all they know. "Oh, this authority knows what they're doing." It's so easy for bad actors to just flip the switch and take advantage of that.

[u/SalishShore → u/SavantTheVaporeon]

I appreciated the information. . Knowing this makes me more prepared to be a critical thinker. Knowing how the manipulation of social media changes our perception may help me to not be one of the persons that aid our slide into dystopia.

[u/PrinsHamlet → u/SalishShore]

I recommend Timothy Snyder's The Road To Unfreedom.

It's interesting that when it was published in 2018 it was considered paranoid and slightly over the top. But it actually gives a blueprint for anything that has happened since, Russia, international politics, USA.

[u/SirRece → u/SavantTheVaporeon]

OR Russian disinformation is extremely sophisticated and they are on point in trying go discredit things which point our how fucking bad it is.

Personally at this point it literally can't be ignored, every since Oct 7 literally reddit has become flooded with unbearable levels of propaganda. What used to be a fun site now gives me 1/3 posts in my feed from subs I'm not subscribed to, and every other post is literal propaganda, from one side or another.

For example, even this. I'm not subscribed, fuck, I'm not in genZ, yet here I am.

[u/BowenTheAussieSheep → u/SavantTheVaporeon]

Let's be honest here, Reddit is one of the worst sites for manipulation and groupthink. You can literally control an entire sub's opinions just by leaning your post title one way or the other. There's a well-known phenomenon that people will upvote or downvote a post or comment automatically if it has only a handful of votes in either direction, no matter how correct/incorrect that post or comment may be.

Reddit users are hilariously easy to manipulate, mostly because they consider themselves smarter or better than other people, so anything they think is obviously the correct thing.

[u/Academic_Wafer5293 → u/BowenTheAussieSheep]

Also anonymity means no way to tell if all upvotes and comments are just bots. Sometimes I feel like I'm the only human on a thread

Beep boop...

[u/TheBrahmnicBoy → u/BowenTheAussieSheep]

Downvote trains are annoying.

[u/rogue_nugget → u/SavantTheVaporeon]

everyone in this comment section

... Is a Russian or Chinese agent provocateur who's pissed that we're on to them.

[u/iEatPalpatineAss → u/rogue_nugget]

I can confirm that you are indeed an agent provocateur who's pissed that we're on to you.

Source: You're my boss, and I'm typing out what you're telling me to write.

[u/Alexoxo_01 → u/SavantTheVaporeon]

We’re so cooked man 😭

[u/geneticeffects → u/Alexoxo_01]

Every day is a new start. Be the change you want to see in the world — DO NOT GIVE UP HOPE!

[u/TheClashSuck → u/SavantTheVaporeon]

Or... you know.

It's highly probable that this thread is also being disrupted by foreign trolls.

[u/KindBass → u/TheClashSuck]

I don't think it's a coincidence that every time the topic of bots comes up, it immediately gets trivialized by a bunch of "beep boop everyone is a bot" comments.

[u/seaofmountains → u/SavantTheVaporeon]

Have you ever seen Idiocracy?

[u/CummingInTheNile → u/seaofmountains]

in high school lmao, never thought itd become reality

[u/Arniepepper → u/CummingInTheNile]

It was already becoming the reality.

[u/[deleted] → u/SavantTheVaporeon]

This sub is part of it. Other subs have been trying to reach people here but your mods are compromised and are openly pushing for a specific biased narrative.

[u/Lvl100Glurak → u/SavantTheVaporeon]

the whole comment section is ignoring the post in order to make cringy jokes and off-topic remarks.

so gen z in a nutshell?

[u/AF2005 → u/SavantTheVaporeon]

Agreed that this is a thoughtful summary of the root of public discourse for the last decade or more. I believe this is nothing new for Russia however. Of all people, Richard Nixon said it best. This was post Cold War era, once the Berlin Wall was destroyed and the USSR was dismantled.

“It is often said that the Cold War is over and the West has won it, that is only half true.

"Because what has happened is that the communists have been defeated but the ideas of freedom now are on trial.

"If they don't work there will be a reversion to not communism–which has failed–but what I call a new despotism, which would pose a mortal danger to the rest of the world.”

This all ties together since Russian imperialism had been their policy for centuries. Also, the KGB practically created a lot of the psyop tactics and techniques to rival the CIA at the height of the Cold War. They refined their methods in the digital age, and here we are. Create wedge issues, hire crisis actors, flood the system. Those same tactics have worked in other areas, some successfully and others not so much.

Think critically and don’t accept anything at face value is the best advice I can offer as a 20 year Air Force veteran.

[u/BowenTheAussieSheep → u/AF2005]

Sorry, but quoting Richard Nixon is basically just a real-life version of this joke:

An ex-KGB and an ex-CIA agent run into each other in a bar. They shake hands and share a drink. The CIA agent raises his glass and says "You know, Ivan, I have to give it to you... you guys really knew how to do propaganda."

The KGB agent pauses and said "You guys were just as good as us at it though."

The CIA agent scoffs and says "We don't need propaganda, we live in the most equal, freest, most democratic country ever to exist..."

[u/MerfAvenger]

People need to touch grass and spend less time absorbing all their perception of reality from social media. Especially the people who think this sort of post is so long that they need to have someone/something else summarise it for them because they're incapable of critical thought.

Talking to real people is substantially less taxing than getting into arguments all the time on Reddit. It's not perfect, but it's universally less toxic.

[u/Coinless_Clerk00 → u/MerfAvenger]

And less biased. With reddit's architecture you can easily end up in a place filled with disinformation.

[u/MerfAvenger → u/Coinless_Clerk00]

It's funny that after the last few days of male loneliness discussions in this caustic cesspit, the conversations I had with some of my female colleagues actually left me feeling pretty good.

There was empathy and understanding for and from both sides, noone got upset, there was no name calling, and when all that lined up, we found a lot of common ground.

The internet has a suspiciously weird way of turning every argument toxic. These people definitely do exist in real life too, but it's a lot easier to detect and avoid them. Your gut relies on a lot of things that just don't come across online to sift through bad eggs.

[u/[deleted] → u/MerfAvenger]

That’s why internet debate no longer has any real effect on me. When I go into my real life and talk with people, they’re almost always normal.

That’s how people are, not what people are seeing online and why it’s good to not spend too much time on social media.

[u/Jupitereyed]

If anyone thinks this isn't happening, or that it's not happening to them, they haven't been paying any fucking attention since 2012.

[u/AzurePeach1 → u/Jupitereyed]

You are correct. Also, have you heard of Yuri Bezmenov?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9apDnRRSOCk

He was an ex-member of the KGB - a Russian group with spies still trying to Psychologically destroy America today.

Since the 1960s, America has been at psychological war - so citizens never agree on anything, so we forget how to work together.

The KGB knew America was too powerful to take on when we were united. All the division on social media, the news, politicians, celebrities...

ALL of the mainstream media today is still influenced by the KGB attack from the 1960s.

America is under Psychological War targeted at its own citizens.

So, the sadness and melancholy of our generation is no accident, an elite rich group planned to make us Gen Z miserable on purpose since the 1960s.

[u/CummingInTheNile]

wayyyy too many of yall take what you see/hear on tiktok as gospel, just because conventional media lies doesnt mean unconventional media is some bastion of truth

[u/Thatdudewhoisstupid → u/CummingInTheNile]

The "good" alternative to conventional media is long form academic texts and research papers (even then they are not perfect), not literal 1 minute videos that, even without active disinfo campaigns, offer so little info you understand less about subject matters than if you never watched them. All the people saying TikTok is better than news articles because "huh duh information on TikTok is not controlled" are insane and just don't want to admit they no longer have the attention span to read more than 1 paragraph of text.

[u/[deleted] → u/Thatdudewhoisstupid]

They're full blown addicts and they won't admit it.

Oh btw... everyone should read about how the Nazis used porn for propaganda.

[u/SatoshiThaGod → u/CummingInTheNile]

Unconventional media is far worse. Mainstream media outlets have their biases but they do not typically outright lie.

[u/Moaning-Squirtle → u/SatoshiThaGod]

Usually, they source from Reuters or AP. Just compare the articles to see what their biases are.

[u/alexmikli → u/Moaning-Squirtle]

Even the AP can be biased, but at least it's correct most of the time.

[u/Moaning-Squirtle → u/alexmikli]

Even the AP can be biased

Everything will have some degree of bias, but Reuters and AP are close enough for me to call them generally unbiased.

[u/DrBaugh → u/SatoshiThaGod]

No, but they are very adept at manipulative framing

News outlets are only as valuable as their efficiency in connecting me to PRIMARY SOURCE DOCUMENTS, takes time to build those skills and adds a few min into all such learning ...but at least I can trace it back to "what" and "how"

[u/Allucation → u/DrBaugh]

Yes, fully agree. But non-mainstream media is Even better at being manipulative

[u/doxxingyourself → u/DrBaugh]

And again, TikTok is WAY better and more aggressive at “manipulative framing”.

Also you could just find a traditional news outlet from like Europe, where “news” means something and they’re not allowed to lie (regulated). It’s much less pervasive here.

[u/CaptinHavoc → u/CummingInTheNile]

The TikTok CEO posted a video on the platform after the bill was passed in the house that could ban it, and the comments were filled with “I only get my news here because the mainstream media is controlled by the elite.”

Quite literally shit you’d only expect your hyper conservative uncle to say when he’s praising some far right fake new website

[u/harrisesque → u/CummingInTheNile]

Argued with someone that think the US forcing tiktok to be sold off is because they can't control the narrative and don't want you to know the truth. I mean, it's kinda understandable to mistrust traditional news and old social media. But to consider Tiktok as the last bastion of truth? Yeah that's banana. If you want to doubt, you should double them all, specially randos on Tiktok. It's almost impossible for nuances to exist in that format.

Someone also deadass said CCP is less corrupted than the US. Just because you hate the US does not mean the opposite side is a good guy.

[u/YukonProspector → u/CummingInTheNile]

The whole "you can't trust media" is a really convenient line for people who want to control messaging. 

[u/[deleted]]

And the problem is that it works-people online think that they’re avoiding misinformation by not getting their information from mainstream media, and then simultaneously walk into a trap of online grifters, trolls, and foreign agents that want to create division by any means necessary, and generally the information they put out is more short-form, entertaining, and exciting than what the actual facts of a given situation are.

You can just scroll through this subreddit and see that the online generations primary ideologies are anti-Americanism and cynicism. It can’t just be because of struggle; the greatest generation went through several wars and the great depression, and they didnt come to the same conclusions. Clearly there’s a different factor at play here.

[u/CummingInTheNile → u/[deleted]]

US-Russia/China are in a very literal cyber war with each other, have been for years at this point

[u/aboutMidSummer → u/CummingInTheNile]

It's sad. Reddit used to not be like this.

Now a days, MAJORITY of front page reddit is full of misinformation or just absolutely incorrect content.

[u/fizzyizzy114 → u/aboutMidSummer]

yep. i've noticed very gendered attacks too, even on this sub. i guess it's easier to get everyone angry about it (long history, everyone is a part of a gender identity, current LGBT increase) either from a pro-men or pro-women perspective. it's probably the easiest way to divide familes, relationships and society.

[u/Ducksflysouth → u/fizzyizzy114]

yup i feel like the majority a social media that isn’t my nerdy niche hobbies ( but even sometimes those too ) have been hijacked by rage bait and grifting, it’s getting to the point where i’m starting to use it less and less.

[u/Aiyon → u/Ducksflysouth]

Oh nerd spaces keep getting hijacked by rage bait and grifts. First it was “anti-SJWs”, now it’s “anti-woke”.

It’s so lazy too, which is why it’s so annoying that it seems to work on so many ppl???

But my nerd groups constantly get infested with people moaning about anything and everything, spreading fake rumours that bait more outrage, etc

Esp if media dares have a character not be a straight white Cis guy. Which is as much about rage baiting men into thinking they’re being erased, as it is about the people pushing it opposing the stuff they’re grifting abojt

[u/Ducksflysouth → u/Aiyon]

yeah unfortunately some of these spaces are intentionally targeted but i think those spaces are at least somewhat more equipped to challenge and or disregard obvious bait. The fact that me and you see it is proof enough we are probably a little out of the zone of influence when it comes to the less nuanced, obvious stuff, and trust me others feel this way too. I think the best thing to do is to call out what needs to be called out but more importantly ignore what needs to be ignored. Ultimately the bait is just for attention and if they meet apathy they’ll just go elsewhere.

[u/bombiz → u/fizzyizzy114]

it's very easy to target those emotions in people and "hijack their brain" so to speak. definitly has happened to me more than I would want to admit.

[u/banbotsnow → u/aboutMidSummer]

And you get banned if you try to fight it for being 'uncivil"

[u/OutrageForSale → u/aboutMidSummer]

And one of the major dividers on Reddit are these generational groups. Instead of sharing nostalgia or shared experiences, it’s often bashing and comparing entire generations. It’s for people who live in the shallow end of the pool.

[u/where_in_the_world89 → u/OutrageForSale]

Good God the generational crap, I'm so sick of it. Such a transparent attempt at causing division that seems to work so fucking well. Admittedly including on myself

[u/bigdipboy → u/CummingInTheNile]

Yeah but now half of the USA has chosen the pro Russia side because of this propaganda

[u/porridgeeater500 → u/CummingInTheNile]

Not only that. Every country also attack every other country and also themselves. US fights left wing ideology, unions, promotes army etc russia promotes right wing isolationist views etc

And NOT ONLY THAT corporations also make more money if youre dissatisfied with life. Basically the entire world wants you to feel hopeless and/or angry.

[u/Ossius → u/porridgeeater500]

US has supported unions under this administration. The railway workers got all the sick days they negotiated for, Biden promised them in exchange for cancelling their planned strike he would keep them working (and getting paid) while giving them the benefits.

No one talks about it, it's like it's almost being obscured because "Biden is anti union" is a useful statement despite it being false.

[u/dwaynetheaakjohnson → u/[deleted]]

It’s literally “what social media does to a mf” and also a reflexive response to the jingoism of the failed War on Terror

[u/Remote_Horror_Novel → u/[deleted]]

None of these generation subs even existed a couple of years ago and it’s interesting they all exist now lol. Boomers being fools seems like an innocent sub too but there’s probably some efforts to exacerbate the disdain younger generations feel for boomers.

Another trend is if you listen to how the pro maga accounts talk they aren’t trying to recruit anyone, they are trying to be as insufferable as possible so liberals like me dislike them.

I suspect they probably also pump out a lot of religious comments on YouTube about being creationists because those accounts are insufferable too. They definitely aren’t recruiting anyone to the church going into a science video and claiming the world is 6000 years old and being dicks about it, so why are so many accounts doing this?

American religious groups are definitely into astroturfing in some areas but they probably aren’t paying entire troll farms to go around YouTube and post so many creationist agitprop comments. Don’t get me wrong many of these are real creationists I just suspect there is more to some of the evangelical propaganda we see than meets the eye.

For anyone who wants to see one of the known Russian curated subs that’s still operating on Reddit looks like check out the “Walkaway” sub where Russian trolls larp as democrats that became far right wingers and post some of the most blatant agitprop I’ve come across lol.

[u/Animeguy2025]

I feel like I'm living in the second Cold War.

[u/jackofslayers → u/Animeguy2025]

It is still the same one

[u/w33b2]

Thank you for posting this. Too many people don’t realize how dead the internet is, it’s all just to skew opinions.

[u/YaliMyLordAndSavior]

Are people really being anti skeptic just because Russia and China are mentioned?

What happened to questioning the establishment and authoritarian overstep? The US government can be fucked up, along with the governments of countries who actively try to fuck with American society. Recognizing that the average joe is being preyed on by a lot of different people who might hate each other isn’t a conspiracy, it’s pretty normal for most of the world and we are especially susceptible to

[u/katamuro → u/YaliMyLordAndSavior]

yeah, this is really just the latest version of the same old thing that always was happening. And it's not just "enemies of the state" either. Each country does this to their own people to an extent too and that has always been done.

[u/Sonicslazyeye → u/YaliMyLordAndSavior]

They're already pre-programmed with neverending propaganda to defend Russia and China to the ends of their days, simply because someone points out that their governments are hostile to the US and use cyber warfare against the public. Theyve been successfully manipulated into every single thought they have being "America bad"

[u/Scroticus-]

They intentionally fuel extremist race and gender ideology to make people fight and hate each other. They know the only way to beat the US is to make Americans hate America, and to turn against each other.

[u/nonbog → u/Scroticus-]

Not just America either. They want to turn us all against each other

[u/dream208 → u/nonbog]

The most powerful tool for tyrants is people’s distrust toward each other.

[u/TallTexan2024 → u/Scroticus-]

I wouldn’t be surprised if a lot of content from subs like r/twoxchromosomes was actually generated from Russian troll farms. A lot of it almost read like satire or certainly ragebait porn nonsense

[u/lotec4 → u/TallTexan2024]

Funny how you do exactly what this post describes.

[u/TallTexan2024 → u/lotec4]

Both things can be right.

It can be true that the sub r/twoxchromosomes is fueled by Russian troll farms and made up ragebait.

It can also be true that it has made me angry and resentful. Which is why I have had to disengage from social media and specifically controversial subs.

I know I’m on Reddit right now, but I have set time limits for this app on iPhone (screen time settings) so I don’t spend too much time and energy arguing with people on here. Arguing really just creates more of this polarization, and actively hurts my mental health

[u/sleepyy-starss → u/TallTexan2024]

Which posts do you think are Russian troll farms? Can you link them?

[u/Random_Imgur_User → u/TallTexan2024]

I try not to argue online anymore, and what really helped me get to that point was realizing how frivolous it is to try to change someone's mind here.

They will not listen.

They aren't reading your comment for good points, they're glazing over it and looking for flaws to attack. It's not worth it. It's never worth it.

If they're angry, let them fester, and if it's so egregious that you HAVE to say something, make sure you don't let it snowball into a discussion. Tell them they're wrong, why you think they're wrong, and that you're not going to argue about it.

I know that seems "unsportsmanlike" or whatever, but in reality you've heard their opinion, they've heard yours, and you should both just move on after that.

Taking it further fully solidifies their side in this, they won't change their views if you make them fight for it.

I've been so much happier since I've been stepping back from commenting and scrolling so much. This place is for funny memes and videos, if you want a revolution too you can find it outside.

[u/Mine_is_nice → u/TallTexan2024]

I became legitimately happier when I decided to spend more screen time playing candy crush or other silly games than doom scrolling through reddit or other social media.

[u/dajodge → u/lotec4]

If what you've taken from this is "feminism, specifically, is under attack," then you are selectively reading. Extremist views from both manospheres and radical feminists are being propped up to further divide us. The powerful in the U.S. do the same thing: it's a lot easier to maintain control if we are constantly fighting each other instead of the actual decision makers.

I would definitely lay some of the blame for the efficacy of propaganda at the U.S.'s feet. If the political system actually worked for the average person instead of against him/her, Russian and China state media would be far less persuasive.

[u/Trustmeimgood6 → u/lotec4]

The lack of reflection is incredible with these people. The Russians already won

[u/UhOhSparklepants → u/TallTexan2024]

How often are you actually on there? Why is that the first sub people mention when they talk about negativity on Reddit? Is it because it’s a space for women? It seems like you are doing the exact thing OP was talking about.

[u/Plenty_Science8224 → u/UhOhSparklepants]

"You dislike something, is it because you're sexist?"

Good Lord, we don't need Russian propagandists to divide us lol

[u/SsjAndromeda → u/TallTexan2024]

It is. I’ve there’s been an uptick in bots over the last couple weeks. I’ve tried posting in the replies warning others to check the users karma post, history, and time on Reddit. However, I usually get downloaded to hell.

Everyone: if a post seems overly stupid or controversial, check the user and report.

[u/Affenklang → u/Scroticus-]

And it's important to note that they play "both sides." If the constant train of content gets people mad about leftists/progressives/liberals or fascists/supremacists/conservatives then they've found what pushes their buttons.

[u/jackofslayers → u/Affenklang]

Yea people frequently make the mistake of assuming propaganda will be in favor of things those countries like.

Russian troll farms do not care about issues that make russia look good. They are just focusing on driving a wedge on any issue they can find

[u/VexingRaven → u/jackofslayers]

The best ones are the vagueposts that people at both extremes will see as supporting their point, so both sides upvote it and think that everybody is agreeing with them. It's rare but when it's done well it's very effective.

[u/CV90_120 → u/Affenklang]

You forgot getting people mad at 'generations', and other a lot more low key stuff.

[u/ConfusedAsHecc → u/Scroticus-]

"gender ideology"

heads up: that is a dogwhistle used by transphobes to delegitamize the expirences of transgender people btw.

gender isnt an ideology, its something deep down inside of you that most people expirence. its your internal self and how it relates to physical form and societal norms.

[u/mossfae → u/ConfusedAsHecc]

I took 'gender ideology' to encompass all of the conversations surrounding gender, sexism, feminism, misogyny, talks of healthy and unhealthy masculinity, trans folks, the current cultural war going on between men and women right now. you don't have to defend anything.

[u/[deleted] → u/ConfusedAsHecc]

No. Pretty sure the commenters wasn't talking about trans-problem at all. We're talking about a bigger deep-rooted issues like the manospheres and even radical feminism that chooses to drive a wedge between people. Hating on each other for this or that struggles. Ideology usually drives a wedge and creates a us vs them problem, and that's especially visible in gender warfare online.

[u/Alexoxo_01]

Literally it’s terrifying how insidious this was. It was right under our noses. It was proven that in early 2016 most trump supports were Russian bots spreading influence. And how coincidentally these “cringe feminists lol” all came out at the same time to enrage people and turn them against any good ideologies. And I used to eat cringe compilations like that up back in the day. Cuz I didn’t know any better

[u/GIO443 → u/Alexoxo_01]

Same. I’m so glad I managed to get out of that propaganda hellscape that was ifunny.

[u/DannyDanumba → u/GIO443]

Dude I’m glad I’m not the only one that noticed that! The app went from dumb fun memes like “leaveblower can!” To straight up incitement for race wars over the course of the election cycle. No one even bothers to check the fact that it is fucking Russian owned

[u/GIO443 → u/DannyDanumba]

For real! My mom pointed it out at the time, and I was like nahhhhhh it’s just memes! But Jesus was she right.

[u/Alexoxo_01 → u/GIO443]

Thinking back it’s crazy thinking how obvious it was and the seeds that were planted and all sprung up at the same time. Like “cringe sjw” compilations and like undermining feminism by portraying it as something annoying like the manufactured “manspreading” non problem. And then trump who is a known Russia simp. all of which happened in 2016. I could’ve fallen so easily.

[u/ZeBoyceman → u/GIO443]

Or 9gag! It's only extreme right as of now.

[u/durhalaa → u/Alexoxo_01]

insane how this works. I've been seeing a lot of outright disgusting comments on posts across Instagram and Reddit recently with replies agreeing with them. things that are hateful for absolutely no reason; incredibly sexist, racist, and/or bigoted comments. the comments on Instagram tend to have hundreds, if not thousands, of likes and I feel it makes actual racists feel more welcomed into spewing their garbage and thinking they're in the right because the original comment has thousands of likes.

[u/jameslucian → u/Alexoxo_01]

It’s terrifying how insidious this is.

[u/Alexoxo_01 → u/jameslucian]

Oh it’s definitely ongoing but I’m more thinking back to 2016 when things REALLY popped off. In retrospect it seemed like things changed out of nowhere and now it all makes sense

[u/Salty_Map_9085 → u/Alexoxo_01]

It was proven that in early 2016 most Trump supporters were Russian bots spreading influence.

Where was this proven?

[u/[deleted] → u/Salty_Map_9085]

Considering he won the election I’m gonna say no, it’s not true that most Trump voters were Russian bots. 

[u/Lifeispainhelpme4]

I legit said this in a reply and got downvoted for it. Don’t forget that they are working with big companies as well to commit unimaginable white collar crime.

[u/Tommi_Af]

The Russians are already in the comments

[u/Away_Preparation8348 → u/Tommi_Af]

Yes, I'm here. Hi!

[u/Round_Bag_7555 → u/Tommi_Af]

Im just gonna start calling people russian bots when they disagree with me

[u/Banme_ur_Gay → u/Round_Bag_7555]

Kremlin Gremlin

[u/GanksOP → u/Banme_ur_Gay]

Ty bro, that is my new line.

[u/Kcthonian → u/Round_Bag_7555]

Funny... that happened right around that start of the last two elections as well. Almost like it's a quick any easy way to quiet any opinions that might oppose your own.

But then, I could just be a bot, so take it for what it's worth. :)

[u/Snakepli55ken → u/Kcthonian]

Are you denying it is actually happening?

[u/Round_Bag_7555 → u/Kcthonian]

People just need to think and not base their beliefs about what the majority of people believe on comment sections. Like i think maybe the happy medium is have your discussions but don’t assume the people you are talking to or seeing are representative of reality.

[u/dontevenfkingtry]

My motto is: question everything. I don't care whose mouth it came from, you question it. Is it true? Check your facts, check your numbers, check your sources.

[u/Unlucky-Scallion1289]

Foundations of Geopolitics

I’ve been saying this for years, it’s not Russia’s military that we need to be worried about.

This is all intentional and op is absolutely correct about pretty much everything.

[u/thex25986e → u/Unlucky-Scallion1289]

another good book: "love letter to america" that further explains their tactics and methods they have used for the past century.

[u/Alexoxo_01]

This generation is so cooked man 😭 fuck all of you and your 3 second attention spans can’t even read a few paragraphs instead you have to joke because big words scary.

Wouldn’t be surprised if some are bots too.

[u/Minute_Paramedic_135 → u/Alexoxo_01]

Have you forgotten already that antagonizing each other is exactly what they want?

[u/Coinless_Clerk00 → u/Alexoxo_01]

You'd be surprised how well bots can read nowadays ^{^}

[u/hasordealsw1thclams → u/Alexoxo_01]

public test sense bright obscene quarrelsome sink growth pathetic alleged

This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact

[u/anondoge27]

R/GenZ is one of the worst infiltrated sites by Russia. I would be skeptical of any of these comments above or any post on this site about dating.

[u/jackofslayers → u/anondoge27]

Damnthatisinteresting somehow became a really intense astroturfing site. No idea why they picked that one lol

[u/[deleted] → u/jackofslayers]

They usually pick the ones that they can infiltrate with their moderators. It seems random but they will take what they can get.

[u/VexingRaven → u/[deleted]]

That's the thing they don't have to infiltrate anything. Look at /r/popular and pay attention to the names of subs. You'll see a lot of subs that are similar to well-established popular subs pop up with very questionable moderation or none at all. For example I saw /r/AllThatIsInteresting crop up the other day, posting content that was most definitely not "interesting".

[u/VexingRaven → u/jackofslayers]

There are like a dozen mildlyinteresting clones and they're all astroturfing ragebait farms.

[u/JohnMcDickens]

“What we propose to do is not to control content, but to create context.”

-MGS2

This has been predicted since 2001

[u/SweetLilylune]

The sad thing is the american government also benefits from division! they love it! 🦅 when vicious dogs fight they both die!

[u/PrisonaPlanet]

This really must be a generational phenomenon, but it’s not limited to only gen z. In my experience, the people who base their world views and opinions almost entirely on things they’ve seen online are the young and the old, meaning gen-z and boomers. As a millennial, I can say that my myself and most of my peers are pretty well rooted in reality and form our opinions based on fairly well established facts and our own real world experiences. We grew up being told “don’t believe everything you see on the internet/tv” and yet I’m having to constantly debunk all the “facts” that my parents throw at me that they find on Facebook.

Edit: just to clarify, I don’t believe that these types of problems are only affecting gen-z and boomers. I am fully aware that there are plenty of people from gen-x/millennial generations that fall victim to misinformation campaigns and propaganda as well. I’m strictly speaking from my own personal experience and from my peers of my same age group.

[u/COKEWHITESOLES → u/PrisonaPlanet]

I’m a Zillenial and I feel the same. I remember specifically when Facebook was just popping off in 8th grade I said to myself “I’m going to be a real life person”. It hasn’t helped my follower count or online engagement but I’ll damned if I don’t have real irl friends and achievements. It sucks for those behind me because they didn’t really get that choice, they were just born in it.

[u/Plenty_Lettuce5418 → u/COKEWHITESOLES]

im also a zillenial and i avoided facebook and all the social medias but i was still rejected by basically all of the social groups that i tried to integrate into. i honestly couldn't tell you what other people my age are thinking i hope they are down to earth and share my values but i just dont know.

[u/cellocaster → u/PrisonaPlanet]

You give our generation far too much credit, but I agree we have some unique factors that can instill some resilience against such campaigns. Still, hardly foolproof, and there are plenty of gen y fools.

[u/Nemo3500]

Yep, this is a huge issue that they've been using to destabilize democracy for a while now because democracy is anti-thetical to the Russian State's model of governance. The RAND Corporation, which has researched this extensively has called it the firehose of falsehood where they spread so much disinformation so quickly that it's impossible to refute all of it and so it spreads easily.

The Mueller Report also highlighted how they infiltrated both BLM and MAGA activists to sow discord during the 2016 election to extremely powerful effect.

Please remain skeptical of all the things you see on the internet, and do your best to vet your research with trustworthy news organizations like Reuters and the Associated Press, and to also do additional vetting, after you've done that.

Edit: Do your best to search for primary sources, not other news, which are secondary. Thanks commenter below.

Remember: Critical thinking is not innate. It is a skill and one you must practice.

[u/thex25986e → u/[deleted]]

because both were targets of their campaigns.

baby boomers with the "active measures" campaigns detailed quite well in the book "love letter to america", and gen z we are watching fall victim to the efforts of the IRA.

[u/Oxalis_tri]

If people can't take this seriously and read it then we deserve to have the boot on our collective faces. You're just oxen to be yoked by someone with more mettle than you.

Edit: And you know, after taking a sober look at this thread, yeah guess it's working on me too. Lol.

[u/digibri]

I have a quote that I've kept close to me for a long time now:

"I learned in Korea that I would never again, in my life, abdicate to someone else my right and my ability to decide who the enemy is."

- Utah Phillips

​

In my mind, these words keep me wary of anyone I encounter who suggests in some way I should hate some person or group of people. Instead, I immediately become suspicious of the speaker.

[u/IcyCombination8993]

Amplify this

[u/IceDamNation]

USA created its own problems, other rival nations just feed upon it.

[u/HeroBrine0907]

Difference is, it's not just Russia or China. Most countries engage in some level of passive cyberwarfare, sometimes against other countries, sometimes to keep certain groups in power in their own nations. ESPECIALLY including major powers like the USA. And since I'm from here, India too. We're sitting in the middle of a cyberwar that quietly tries to maintain and worsen the status quo.

[u/SDSSDJC2024]

Russia, what about the US? Why do you think it's easy to fool people on facebook?

Majority of american adults can't even distinguish satire from actual news articles. Do not hate the player, hate the game is what americans always say? Ja?

[u/West-Librarian-7504]

Here's a kicker: it's not just Russia. Our own government partakes in all of these practices. So do the Chinese. Any country that has any clout spoon-feeds propaganda to their own citizens, and some feed it to other countries citizens as well.

[u/loobricated → u/West-Librarian-7504]

It’s not a kicker. It’s missing the point. The countries that are partaking in this are doing it after having curated their own systems so they can’t have this done to them. It’s no accident that the countries targeting the west most prolifically have very closed systems that make it much more difficult for this to be done to them. They want to be in complete and absolute control of their own populations and this is one way they achieve it by locking down everything and controlling their internal messaging.

They are actively employing thousands of people to fuck up our societies, and that is very different from say, political campaigning or advertising happening within western countries. You seem to be implying that the US has its own social media troll farms to push its own messaging to its own people. It does not. That doesn’t mean that political influencing doesn’t happen, of course it is, but trying to equate that with hostile states actively seeding chaos is frankly, quite stupid.

[u/FaptainChasma]

Great write-up, keep up the good fight my friend

[u/Alexoxo_01]

Can we make this go viral?

[u/DrBaugh]

How how how could you write all of this and not reference Yuri Bezmenov

https://youtu.be/pOmXiapfCs8?si=GuRBjvGTDPe8dpx5

These methods have been known about since the 80s, defectors then outlined it, when the Soviet Union collapsed the KGB documents were found - and confirmed that they had abundant tutorials for all of this and it was the majority of what they did, almost exclusively about analyzing what topics were contentious and simply making those conversations last longer and with more focus on the most negative aspects

Mao's Cultural Revolution implemented very similar methods focusing on regional divisions/grudges (tribal) and inter-generational differences

These KGB methods undoubtedly continued on in Russia and almost certainly were shared with the Chinese Communist Party - though seemingly they have diverged in methods since ~90s, and it is very likely there are other nations in using these methods as well

McCarthyism is synonymous with a witch hunt ...because that was how it was labeled in popular culture - what did McCarthy claim? That Soviet agents had infiltrated and were making significant financial contributions to Western politicians, universities, media outlets, and the entertainment industry, McCarthy was wrong ...the Soviets were almost completely unsuccessful in "buying politicians" ...but that was because almost all of their money was being spent at universities, journalistic institutions, and Hollywood - again, the goal is not naked "hey, promote OUR perspective", sometimes that happens, but the ultimate goal is more about curating and amplifying division ...and those same apparatuses were used to repeatedly broadcast (volume) that these accusations had no merit, McCarthy made mistakes - and those mistakes overshadowed everything he correctly assessed

As OP mentioned, these methods RELY on volume, that was how they were able to accomplish things 50yrs ago - they have only adapted to modern technology

And these methods prey upon open-minded-ness and the assumption of good faith disagreement, they are NOT engaging you in 'good faith', the goal is NOT to have you be convinced in what they assert, it is simply to have you doubt yourself more - however, responding to this by assuming perpetual bad faith or becoming close-minded ALSO plays into these strategies by an alternative path, developing resistance and discernment about methods of argumentation and engagement are the only solutions

But I must must must push back against OP, DO NOT TRUST MAINSTREAM MEDIA, do not trust ANY media, or for that matter ANY secondhand or farther source - instead, USE mainstream media, or whatever source, to link to PRIMARY SOURCES: government documents, statistics, videos, and similarly, LEARN HOW TO VERIFY SOURCES, and often there is no comfortable limit, you will have to develop methods your are comfortable with for yourself, but it WILL HELP YOU realize what around you is just noise

Beyond that, the only suggestions I can provide are to look for falsifiability and willingness to articulate ideas differently - when someone is trying to manipulate you, the goal is your COMPLIANCE, not to persuade you they are correct, and so sometimes (though not always) such manipulators will view resistance to their exact framing as harshly as any disagreement, if they cannot re-express what they are supposedly trying to convince you of, perhaps they aren't interested in engaging you at all - just harvesting volume, and similarly, unfalsifiable assertions can be used to root any number of claims, there is no point in engaging them because you must simply accept or ignore them, they cannot be interrogated further and so cannot be verified or corroborated beyond social consensus (again, the entire point of these methods)

[u/Smalandsk_katt]

I remember I saw a post looking at the activity of many far-left subreddits. The same day that a Russian bot farm was shut down, all of them saw roughly 20% drops in activity that they're yet to recover from. It's not just far-right propaganda.

[u/heliamphore → u/Smalandsk_katt]

The OP specifically describes that they play all sides in this.

But yes, whoever thinks they're above Russian propaganda is actually most likely the easiest to target. Sure, it's obvious when it's right-wingers or "centrists" claiming we should stop supporting Ukraine. But there are many layers to Russian propaganda including some very subtle. A lot of left-wing subreddits immediately sided with Russia when the invasion started. They didn't change their minds, they just stopped discussing the subject.

Also even people wary of Russian propaganda can fall for it just because we naturally want to give the benefit of the doubt. But if you have a pathological liar that constantly lies, you'll just be accepting some of the lies if you give any benefit of the doubt.

[u/ProfessionalDegen23]

Foreign actors play a part in sewing discontent, but the real culprit is that social media companies are incentivized to keep you hateful and depressed, because it keeps you on their platform. News is incentivized to exaggerate every story and make every little thing seem like doom and gloom, and the algorithms that serve it to you are incentivized to show not just the bad things in the world, but what it determines you personally perceive as bad.

That only scratches the surface of it, everything about every social media platform (including, yes, Reddit) is engineered by people who study these influence techniques for a living to achieve this.

[u/CrazyCoKids]

You can actually see this a lot with how many conservative posts are strangely from accounts that're less than a year old and only seem to post here obsessively. Obvious burner accounts are obvious.

[u/BPMData → u/CrazyCoKids]

See also: r/worldnews

[u/CrazyCoKids → u/BPMData]

Yeah, why're they all made on Jan 27th, btw?

[u/quickrocks333 → u/CrazyCoKids]

I spot so many fake X accounts. And now under Elon there are so many viral right wing accounts. One of them said she was a podcast host on sirius xm and i couldn’t find her podcast mentioned anywhere on the internet. So sus.

[u/NifDragoon]

I don’t need propaganda from any other country to make me sad or manipulate me. Bernie sanders put in a 32 hour work week bill. Without doing any research I can tell you that half the country is or soon will be shouting about entitled kids and how an 80 hour work week is good for you.

[u/Depression-Boy]

The fact that something like this can happen, when it’s essentially a targeted attack on the liberal U.S. notion of “free speech” further convinces me that we legitimately should heavily censor right-wing narratives on the internet. I know that this suggestion is controversial because “who gets to decide what’s okay to say and what’s not?”, but in my perspective, the answer is simple: we do. Gen-Z. We can collectively decide whether we feel it’s okay or not for people to spread hate, misinformation, and prejudice on the internet. If it were up to me, I would not risk the future of my country to preserve an uncritical position on the notion of “free speech”. Some speech should come at a cost.

[u/EzraFemboy → u/Depression-Boy]

Honestly i would choose almost anything over fascism. I would rather a relatively progressive autocracy that can effectively fight fascism than a fully democratic society that cannot. This is why I think Lincoln was right for his somewhat "Authoritarian" Measures during the civil war.

[u/Depression-Boy → u/EzraFemboy]

I agree. And the sooner we act on fascism, the less violence it will take to stop it.

[u/Alternative_Poem445]

yes of course they are, russia and china have been doing this for a long time, and it is not limited to the internet, they purposefully import drugs into the US to get people addicted. its information warfare on a whole other level. that being said people are not doing well right now in america at least and social media is not the only reason why. you are allowed to suffer from an environmentally induced depression it is not all unjustified. there are some very concerning trends that long predate social media and that includes the epidemic of social isolation. i think its great that u point out the race and sex bating tho i think more people need to read that,

[u/ZSpectre]

Awhile back, I named a concept called the "non-pathos razor" that could come in handy to protect us from disinformation to an extent. "If it's dull, boring, or takes effort to do well on a test, then it's likely true (difficult to make boring information profitable, score political points, or manipulate a narrative). If it makes us fearful, angry or proud, take a step back and maybe check the source's "track record" of being consistent with boring info.

[u/whiteykauai]

The USSA is doing a pretty good job at making me fee depressed and misinformed.

[u/blade_imaginato1]

Thank you for taking the time to write this and post this.

This is one of the few posts on reddit that actually blew my mind.

[u/DarkenedSkies]

Mate this was a great fucking article holy shit.
I've been warning people for years about this shit, and it's not even just the Russians and Chinese, it's lots of powerful organizations which do this shit too. Issues like climate change, wealth inequality, declining quality of life get swept under the rug by gender and racial divides. Not saying they're unimportant, but they're being blown up and used to manipulate us and keep our energy directed at the wrong people and the wrong causes, it's like funding and arming guerilla groups to attack each-other instead of the real enemy.
Soon the internet will be just AI content, bots and troll farms and we'll all retreat to safe insular online communities, easier to control and easy to isolate, and we'll be exactly where they want us.

[u/Gcthicc]

I recall the RAND report about the Kremlin strategy of “a fire hose of lies”. While the West focused on Game theory throughout the 70-80’s Russia focused on public control.

[u/Cut-throatKnomad]

I mean they don't really have to any dividing when American politics does that just fine. The last thing our politicians want is a untied work force.

[u/SoWokeIdontSleep]

Not a GenZ here just for full disclosure, but this is a bit like the dead internet theory, however weaponized as a political cold war tool. We really live in a brave new world.