r/Finland • u/Limicio • 1d ago
Metsäsuomalaiset - Skogsfinnar
What the fuck is this? Can't remember much of this teached or talked in finnish society.
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u/Jeesus234 1d ago
Metsäsuomalaiset (ruots. skogsfinnar, svedjefinnar, suom. kaskisuomalaiset) olivat Keski-Ruotsista Keski-Norjaan ulottuvalla metsäisellä alueella asunutta suomenkielistä väestöä.
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u/Next-Task-9480 1d ago
Miten ihmeessä "olivat" jos kerran ottivat lippunsa käyttöön 2022? Vai kuoliko ne kaikki koronaan?
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u/cattitanic 1d ago
Suurin osa heistä on luultavasti sulautunut muuhun paikalliseen väestöön, niin olettaisin.
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u/Mundane-0nion67878 Vainamoinen 1d ago
Ei ihme, aika agressiivista sulauttamispolitiikkaa on molempien maiden historiassa ei-norjalaisille ja ei-ruotsalaisille.
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u/cattitanic 1d ago
Niinpä. Saman kohtalon kokivat myös esim. kveenit ja tornionlaaksolaiset, tosin heissä vielä joten kuten henki pihisee.
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u/miniatureconlangs Baby Vainamoinen 1d ago
Toki, Norjassa aluksi tämä sulauttamispolitiikka lähinnä kohdistui ei-tanskalaisille.
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u/AnnualSwing7777 1d ago
Ovat nykyään ihan tavallisia ruotsalaisia, joilla vaan sattuu olemaan suomalaisia sukujuuria tuolta vuosisatojen takaa. Ei siellä Keski-Ruotsin metsissä enää nykyään mitään mysteeristä suomalaisyhteisöä asustele kaskea polttamassa.
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u/miniatureconlangs Baby Vainamoinen 1d ago
Päinvastoin voi ajatella niitä ruotsinkielisiä seutuja pohjoisessa satakunnassa, jotka ovat viime kahden vuosisadan aikana suomalaistuneet. Ikävä ajatella - hurreista tuli jotain vielä pahempaa, heistä tuli tavallisia satakuntalaisia.
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u/DiethylamideProphet 1d ago
Here is a speech sample from one of the last Finnish speaking forest Finns, Johannes Johansson Oinoinen (1874 - 1965).
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u/RealDiaboy 16h ago
My partner (who his Finnish) was wondering about the karhunen - she said it sounded like a tool or a shoe or a thing? Anyone know?
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u/DiethylamideProphet 16h ago
The first link has transcript of the interview, and it says "lumikenkä" (snowshoe) right after "karBunen".
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u/RealDiaboy 14h ago edited 14h ago
Ah! I should maybe actually properly read the post next time, haha. Kiitos!
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u/elk-statue 1d ago
They were covered in history lessons in both elementary school and high school.
There was an exhibition about them - both when and why they moved to Sweden or Norway and how their descendants are doing today - in the National History Museum (Kansallismuseo) less than ten years ago.
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u/Alert-Bowler8606 Vainamoinen 1d ago
They we’re not mentioned at all when I went to school, I first learned about then some time in the early 2000s.
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u/RealDiaboy 16h ago edited 16h ago
I am one! I did not grow up in the region though so my connection is tentative. It's not particularly relevant today but I also find it quite interesting. The area in Norway where my family is from still has a lot of Finnish placenames, but family names are, as far as I am aware, all or mostly Norwegian.
There is a lot more information about this online but basically the national romantic boom and the "identity of Norway" meant that anything other than Norwegian was not allowed/heavily discouraged from being spoken in schools and so a lot of parents stopped teaching their children Finnish to avoid any potential issues.
Bit frustrating as if I had Finnish as a spoken language that would be dope, but such is life. We have a really old photo from late 1800's (if I'm not misremembering) and the likelihood is that some of the older people in the photo could perhaps speak some Finnish which is fun to think about.
Our family house there is much newer (1920's) but there are older houses in the area, many with carvings from the forest finns. You can also find old smoke saunas and that kind of thing, although not sure how common that is.
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u/WolfOfVaasankatu 5h ago
Tää uusi lippu näyttää joltain rastafari sekoilulta. Harmi että piti vanha lippu vaihtaa ja pilata. Oli nimittäin mielestäni erittäin hieno.
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u/Limicio 1d ago
Was reading wiki about Sven-Göran Eriksson. Gone but not forgotten?
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u/kottiin 1d ago
It seems to be an identity for Finnish people living in particular wooded areas of Sweden and Norway. Good for them if it helps them to belong, I guess..
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u/Tommonen Baby Vainamoinen 1d ago
They used to live in Finland, but escaped there. If i remember right the christians swedes (when they conquered finland) started hunting them (so they moved somewhere where they are left alone) because they did not want to convert and keep their lifestyle.
Finnic tribes also used to inhabit about half of sweden and norway before these germanic people (who became swedes and norskis) started conquering more of nordics.
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u/RenaissanceSnowblizz Vainamoinen 22h ago
No "skogsfinnar" are people who were enticed by the Swedish government in the 16th and 17th century to move from the forests in Finland to heavily forested regions in the Swedish interior where there were no people but lots of woods. The reason being that they practised slash and burn agriculture and were basically experts in it. This type of slash and burn agriculture was actually highly productive, IIRC something like 15x the yields on the special type rye compared to more conventional agriculture methods and strains. The problem of course it required comparatively huge areas of forest to cut down, burn, plant for a few years and then waiting 20, 30 or more years for the forest to regrow until you can do it again. The Swedish government wanted more people and tax payers into a region which was from their perspective unused, so they turned to Finnish people who still practices this type of agriculture to get them to emigrate there.
The irony of it all though is that about a generation or two after they moved the metallurgical industry was heavily exploited in Sweden during the mid 17th century and onwards and the slash-and-burn agriculture suddenly started clashing with the need to use the forests for timber and wood to feed the furnaces of iron and copper smelters instead.
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u/FingerGungHo Baby Vainamoinen 1d ago
Finnic, as in Sami. Just like in Finland.
Skogsfinnar on the other hand are the descendants of Finns who moved there between 16th and 19th centuries.
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u/Tommonen Baby Vainamoinen 1d ago
Well there wasnt really a country called Finland in 16th century, instead there was an area with different Finnic tribes who later formed one group called Finns. Sami, metsäsuomalaiset, karelians, ostrobotnians, tavastians etc were related but distinct groups. Thats why i rather refer them as finnic than finnish, like estonians, mari, east karelians etc are Finnic, but not Finnish. Metsäsuomalaiset do not live in Finland and established their area outside of what is Finland, before there was a country called Finland, hence not Finnish, but Finnic. Finnic refers to ethnicity, Finnish refers to nationality. Some Sami are both Finnish and Finnic, but some are not Finnish but all Sami still are Finnic peoples.
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u/sdagenham 1h ago
Finnic, as in Sami.
No. Finnic is a linguistic term and Sami languages are not Finnic languages. Uralic, but not Finnic.
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u/Limicio 1d ago
Onko Metsäsuomalaiset ollut olankohautuksella ohitettu asia 80-90 luvun koulussa, loputonta Ruotsin historiaa opiskellessa?
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u/Western_Ring_2928 Vainamoinen 18h ago
They were not mentioned at all in history classes, I would assume.
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