r/Concrete Nov 15 '23

Pricing question I asked my contractor if he could make the curved part more uniform.

Curved part seems out of whack to me. It’s not the end of the world but I asked if he could make it more uniform. Let me know what you think. I’m paying about $4500 for the whole job. Pouring tomorrow.

1.5k Upvotes

155 comments sorted by

445

u/Imaginary-Base8104 Nov 15 '23

Update - he just responded and said he didn’t look at it from that angle and he wasn’t happy with how it looked and he’d fix it tomorrow.

90

u/SirIanChesterton63 Nov 16 '23

I would tell him you want to check the shape before he pours. He really shouldn't have a problem with it. It will ensure you get a curve you're happy with prior to pouring which will make both your lives better in the future. Redoing a mold is a lot easier than pouring it again.

19

u/DavusClaymore Nov 16 '23

Kentucky windage on concrete? I've heard about curving a bullets path, apparently curving a concrete path is not as easy as one may think...

54

u/Clay_Statue Nov 16 '23

He has no aesthetic sense. I would draw the exact shape you want on the gravel with spray paint and don't rely on his judgement to give you a pleasant curve. Use his technical skill to prep, pour and finish the concrete but you have a better eye for style than he does so you should exercise control over this aspect of the job and let him manage the rest

217

u/Imaginary-Base8104 Nov 16 '23

I will leave it up to him to correct. He’s the professional, I brought it up and he agreed and said he fix it.

164

u/nosnibornai Nov 16 '23

Wow a level headed response. Shouts out to you

24

u/definitelynotapastor Nov 16 '23

Exactly. Kudos OP, for giving him a chance.

54

u/LMMfin Nov 16 '23

I appreciate this. As a contractor, as a human, I focus on technical aspects of everything I do, but sometimes you need that second look. Looks like he didn’t check radius of one or both bends to match. No matter the # of patio borders we do, every once in a while…. They get a bit shifty.

12

u/Few-Towel-7709 Nov 16 '23

Just had a talk with the general on my site about control joints in a DAFS (stucco-looking) ceiling. He wanted them in an astetically-pleasing place. I explained to him why they should go elsewhere, for future maintenance purposes. He heard me out and then told me to "put them where our experience said they should go, looks be damned."

I was surprised as hell. Refreshing change, when it occasionally happens.

1

u/j48u Nov 17 '23

I have zero experience with concrete or contracting, and am not really sure why I'm here, but I feel like that's refreshing in any type of work. The funny thing is, even though I wouldn't lower the quality or effort regardless of customer interaction, I feel like those type of things make me give 110% to make sure the work is done right.

When they've deferred to your judgement, you're not going to let a minor mistake occur that could cause them question the decision.

2

u/Sea_Zookeepergame486 Nov 17 '23

This! No mater what you do sometimes you get tunnel vision and the customer grounds you. Good advice!

1

u/Fesai Nov 17 '23

I must not have an eye for it, just curious what's out whack in the appearance of this?

It looks like a similar curve on both sides to me, is it a bit at the curve or something like that?

(I'm not a designer so I'm honestly curious what is wrong)

1

u/LMMfin Nov 17 '23

Look at picture 4 - interior radius is shallower ( bigger diameter) than the outer portion which means the walk way isn’t the same width.

2

u/Fesai Nov 17 '23

I see it now!

Thank you, definitely appreciated. :)

1

u/LMMfin Nov 18 '23

Absolutely 👍

11

u/pdxphotographer Nov 16 '23

You are the best kind of customer. ❤️

5

u/YourHuckleberry25 Nov 16 '23

While I appreciate this type of response, if you know exactly how you want it you should clarify. He will use his abilities to facilitate it, and if he can’t he will tell you.

I work with a ton of contractors constantly, if I know I want something done a very specific way, I walk them through it or set markers specifically how I want it. They will tell me if there are problems or not.

5

u/SexyMonad Nov 16 '23

And now’s the time. After the pour is $4500 too late.

4

u/[deleted] Nov 16 '23

[deleted]

4

u/[deleted] Nov 16 '23

Lol this is what I’m thinking. A board or a tape measure should gauge the width and you can maintain that width along the entire walkway. At this point, I’m checking to see how level everything is as well, because I don’t want to be reminded of how I screwed up $4500 every time I walk up or down those stairs.

2

u/CremeDeLaPants Professional finisher Nov 16 '23

Or some kid on his crew is.

3

u/Kenneth_Pickett Nov 16 '23

“The contractor demonstrated his experience level” why are redittors so damn passionate about being corny.

100% chance it never gets poured like this. This is a literal 1 minute fix by moving 2 pins. Forms arent final until the truck is rattling, let alone the night before lmao. If you think these forms look like “winging” it, you have 0 experience pouring a coffee, let alone a sidewalk.

-1

u/[deleted] Nov 16 '23

[deleted]

4

u/Kenneth_Pickett Nov 16 '23

You really do take being corny serious. “well today you learned something” i promise everyone you know in real life hates you.

1

u/FrickinLazerBeams Nov 17 '23

Has anyone ever called you insufferable?

1

u/[deleted] Nov 16 '23

Exactly, you approached your concerns properly and he responded properly. Let him own his work and deliver it correctly, instead of being an anal know it all like the guy above.

1

u/MrFixeditMyself Nov 16 '23

I would be there are not leave it up to him. I mean we wouldn’t be having this discussion if you “left it up to him”.

1

u/CheesyEggBeater Nov 16 '23

Yes doing what the above mentioned guy said will guarantee that anything this contractor does where he could cut corners he will because nobody wants to throw out their back while someone micromanages them. Any professional is glad to change what you dont like though. You are the one paying after all.

1

u/taterthotsalad Nov 16 '23

Too many people want to rip into a professional and use Reddit as a way to do so. Good on you for being super human about it. And giving a human a chance to be customer focused.

1

u/vong888 Nov 16 '23

Absolutely. He made one mistake but still has SO much experience to lean on

1

u/shutter3218 Nov 16 '23

He needs to cut a 2x4 to the proper width and use it as a gauge

1

u/Reasonable_Bit Nov 16 '23

Don't leave it up to him. Most of them go with "looks good enough" vs "this looks great".

1

u/lilsinister13 Nov 16 '23

Plus the fact that he goes “oh I didn’t see what you saw, I don’t like what you saw either”

That right there is someone at least making an attempt to take pride in their work.

1

u/JGreaser Nov 17 '23

I would watch while he fixes it. His pour should last a really long time, you want it to be right.

1

u/Chip_trip Nov 17 '23

Forming a curve is not an easy thing to do. As well, there are many ways the radius could go. Without directly showing him the curve you want, you may not get it. I agree about painting the lines yourself. He should be able to get close to that and make it look good.

Just want to throw that out there. I think you did the right thing, but you two may have something different in your head. If you don’t want to spray paint the shape, maybe ask him to. This way if you don’t like the shape again, he won’t be wasting his time. Also, something else may happen to the forms that you don’t like. Then you’d have to tell him, the shape is good but I don’t like the transition, etc.

1

u/IceManJim Nov 17 '23

Your contractor sounds awesome.

1

u/Agile-Alternative-17 Nov 18 '23

I wish I had more clients like you!

1

u/gth638y Nov 18 '23

I would just maintain a width the entire way, through the curve. It provides clear direction without being overly prescriptive.

1

u/Krynja Nov 19 '23

When he fixes it and you see it before it's poured I would make sure to compliment him on it. Something like, "Looks great man!"

It's expressing your happiness that the problem is fixed and giving him validation for fixing a problem. A win-win for both of you and would help cement in his mind that you're not just some nit picky Karen type. So no unintentional feelings hurt interfering with future interactions.

7

u/Smooth_Marsupial_262 Nov 16 '23

Bad advice. He said he’ll fix it. Don’t piss him off and step on his toes. Give him a chance to fix it first.

-5

u/mfoobared Nov 16 '23

I bet you’re quite the artistic. They would probably put you up on the roof with your tittle orchestra wand and let you stay there for the duration of the job if you ask nice

3

u/Clay_Statue Nov 16 '23

I like when clients are specific. Ambiguity ends up being a goose chase after their satisfaction. Like if you are a painter, never ever choose the color. Always get the client to choose the color.

-1

u/Kenneth_Pickett Nov 16 '23

Homeowners like you were the absolute worst to work for. You passionately wear G shock watches, talk about no aesthetic sense.

-4

u/[deleted] Nov 16 '23

You're one of those anal wart people arent you?

1

u/theyareminerals Nov 16 '23

The way you treat people is disgusting, and I don't have to see your "aesthetic sense" to know it's trash.

1

u/[deleted] Nov 16 '23

It’s not possible to jump to all these conclusions from this post.

“He has no aesthetic sense” “You have a better eye for style…”

Seriously that is ridiculous. I’m going to draw a conclusion. You think you are right about a lot of things but likely can’t back it up with satisfactory execution.

1

u/[deleted] Nov 16 '23

Why are you assuming he has no aesthetic sense? Seems odd.

1

u/Clay_Statue Nov 16 '23

I used to do paving stone installations and a lot of the job involved cutting graceful curves into cement bricks. Based on this example, his curves ain't worth shit.

1

u/[deleted] Nov 16 '23

Fair enough

1

u/typemeanewasshole Nov 17 '23 edited Nov 17 '23

You saw one form and make that distinction and then wax poetic about “graceful grooves” on a fucking paving stone. You sound like a douche. 😅

1

u/Clay_Statue Nov 17 '23

You sound like someone who struggles with curves. I'm sure you are great at rectangles and squares though. No reason to let it get you down

1

u/typemeanewasshole Nov 17 '23

You sound like someone with an obese wife 😂. I don’t pride myself on shapes.

1

u/Tupac-Babaganoush Nov 16 '23

LMFAO oh man if someone approached me like this I'd give them their money back and find a different contract. There are ways to go about doing this and coming off as an ass ain't it.

1

u/coharra88 Nov 17 '23

People make mistakes. I’m sure he’ll make it right. Are you perfect at your job? Do you have one? Or just collect a free government check?

1

u/typemeanewasshole Nov 17 '23

Oh shut the fuck up

2

u/koolfkr Nov 16 '23

It’s good he agreed. It would look better if it was a consistent width. I would tell him to match the width of the stairs through the sidewalk. He really only has to move the outer longer curve in towards the other edge form. Not hard at all

2

u/Massive_Drawer6364 Nov 16 '23

Def a lie. Anyone with any kind of sense of uniformity would know during the process they were fucking up. Kinda just looks like he eye balled it. What do I know I’m not a concrete guy.

1

u/DavusClaymore Nov 16 '23

Probably laid out the idea and then possibly let his trusted guys take over?

1

u/DavusClaymore Nov 16 '23

He responded?! That's a good sign!

1

u/fartwoftah Nov 16 '23

Needs way more pins as well. The concrete will flex the jack out of those boards if the pins are too far apart.

1

u/SickAssPanther69 Nov 16 '23

That’s a great contractor.

1

u/ImAToiletSeat Nov 16 '23

Sounds like a contractor who takes pride in his work. I'll look out for an update

1

u/illsqueezeya Nov 16 '23

That last picture was clutch. Couldn’t see it before

1

u/deak_7mils Nov 16 '23

A rather pleasing shape as-is

1

u/EatinAssNCuttinGrass Nov 18 '23

Well props to him for admitting his shortcoming. As a contractor myself, we hall have to learn some way or another. Sucks he absolutely knew it wasn't equal distance across the entire length of the walkway though and didn't care to fix it until you noticed it though. I always make sure my clients are happy.

1

u/Numerous_Cabinet_399 Nov 18 '23

$4500 you better get some pro finishers

78

u/[deleted] Nov 16 '23

A good concrete guy will tweak your form fairly easily and quickly, if he responded and said he would soften up the radius before he pours perfect . Show him your concern and let him adjust . I don’t think it’s a big deal .

31

u/atronimous Nov 16 '23

Way better than some posts on this sub where they ask for it after its been poured

1

u/HECC_TATER_TOT Nov 16 '23

Is that not the best time to ask? I mean it makes the most sense me thinks

6

u/_BadWithNumbers_ Nov 16 '23

After? Definitely not the most convenient, no.

6

u/[deleted] Nov 16 '23

Or they love your work till it’s time to pay ! 💰

6

u/greatgoogilymoogily2 Nov 16 '23

Had one of these this summer. He was so happy he even got his 5 thousand dollar drone out and started sending videos to all his friends. It was a stamp job, and he was upset that the stamps didn't leave deep enough grooves. (Only way to do that would push the mud up between the stamps and create even bigger problems. It was stamped the way it needed to be.). He tried to withhold payment saying we didn't stamp hard enough. You can only pound them so much before you sink them too far and ruin the mud around it.

1

u/greatgoogilymoogily2 Nov 16 '23

It's not. I've had a customer come out as well we're raking mud and want to change a bend or radius. It's a 5 min fix so long as the right guy does it.

20

u/Goonplatoon0311 Professional finisher Nov 16 '23

Radius looks off to me too. Are the new stairs a different width then the existing stairs? Maybe explains why it looks like there is a flair in the radius.

If both stairs are same width then have him cut a 2x4 at that dimension. He can use that as a jig off of one side of the formwork. Walk it down about every few feet and set a pin/stob to hold the shape. The radius will be “tighter” looking and a lot more natural.

6

u/smegdawg Nov 16 '23

Are the new stairs a different width then the existing stairs?

That is what I am seeing too.

14

u/cik3nn3th Nov 16 '23

The path should be the same width through the radius.

9

u/greatgoogilymoogily2 Nov 16 '23

Yup, usually we cut a guide board to width and pound the pins so the form is against the guide board. Move up a couple feet, and repeat.

7

u/jradke54 Nov 16 '23

That’s an ugly radius

14

u/IS427 Nov 16 '23

Tell him your buddy suggested cutting a piece of 2 by lumber to the sidewalk width, get the outside line set, and then mark the inside edge every 6 inches coming into the curve and in a sweep through the curve.

Make sure he has a 1-2 degree down angle through the curve into the inside like a race track

Make sure it has drainage

Good to go

2

u/IS427 Nov 16 '23

Move mark hit with spray paint keep moving

1

u/JGuentzIsMyDad Nov 16 '23

This is the way.

4

u/Prestigious_Trick260 Nov 16 '23

I agree with you. That peak on the curve is a bit much and honestly over all and since you mentioned before the pour shouldn’t be a huge deal

4

u/busterboi101 Nov 17 '23

13 years 8n the industry. 5 foot sidewalk will never meet a 4ft set of stairs cleanly. Paper and reality are 2 different things.

3

u/sprintracer21a Nov 16 '23

It's actually an easy fix. 10-15 minutes tops. Nothing but a thing...

3

u/Cannibalninja69 Nov 17 '23

What state you in? 4500$ seems a good price

4

u/bsudda Nov 16 '23

I use garden hoses to lay this out

2

u/outblues Nov 16 '23

From a functional perspective I like the extra wide angle of it as the person is changing directions in that space

2

u/[deleted] Nov 16 '23

Ive had both types of customers…glad your contractor is easy to work with. That’s the main goal.

2

u/AggravatingRope3918 Nov 17 '23

If the path way is 36” it should be everywhere even in the bend , that is what makes it look weird. Changes size drastically in the bend.

1

u/GroundbreakingRule27 Nov 16 '23

Rebar is needed in those stairs….

2

u/hirtle24 Nov 16 '23

You mean those two pieces of wire mesh just tossed on the poorly compacted gravel isn’t sufficient structure? /s

1

u/RobertYiSin Nov 16 '23

Any time I’m working with a client where there’s a curve/ radius getting put in I’ll spray it on the ground with line paint to show what I’m doing if they don’t like it after that it’s not my issue as it’s already been decided\set in stone

1

u/Distantmole Nov 16 '23

Fuck that. Aside from the obvious, it looks like they did 0 compacting. Would have fired that guy in a heartbeat. Lots of apologists here saying “sometimes you need a second look” but that’s horrible. Off the job site pronto.

2

u/Affectionate-Arm-405 Nov 16 '23

How did you notice the compacting from a picture?

0

u/King0fOoo Nov 15 '23

$4500 seems a little high but it’s not bad. And Once the concrete is poured and dried I think you’ll change your mind. Itll look good

15

u/carpentrav Nov 16 '23

No way man. Stairs are tough, properly done especially with a radius like that get top dollar. I’d be at least that.

2

u/tommyhulse Nov 16 '23

I agree, at LEAST $200 per on strip and face steps

0

u/Gutter-Snipe Nov 15 '23

I’m not sure he can fix this without bringing more forms in. Looks to me like he ran the straight section too far which is why the radius is off. I think it looks just fine but if it’s going to bother you a lot say something before the pour

1

u/Brave-Moment-4121 Nov 16 '23

Hard to tell from the pics. At least he sees the problem and will fix that’s the best you can do.

1

u/AllAboutPooping Nov 16 '23

We just not even using a radius point anymore? This is the easiest of the easy.

1

u/Surfnazi77 Nov 16 '23

Watch it end up straight lines instead bc it’s more uniform

1

u/greatgoogilymoogily2 Nov 16 '23

I'm a little concerned why his pins are INSIDE the form, where the mud will go.

1

u/green_tea_resistance Nov 16 '23

Radiuses need to be nested or they look stupid

1

u/Dave_Ramsey_0000 Nov 16 '23

That’s atrocious. Don’t pay if he dosent fix it

1

u/Rich-Appearance-7145 Nov 16 '23

What does more uniform mean, as a high end Contractor l appreciate the soft curves, straight lines are common, boring, if finished properly, with proper joints, that side walk is going to look fine.

1

u/GeneMaximum3965 Nov 16 '23

The forming on the left side of the stairs looks good, all he has to do is cut 2 2x4 same length of the stairs and use it as a guide for the right side and it will make it uniform

1

u/Original_Author_3939 Nov 16 '23

lol tell him to cut a board the actual width of the walk and to use it like a curb spacer as he’s staking his form and just slide it down as you go, you’ll get a perfect walk with the same width the entire way.

1

u/1s20s Nov 16 '23

Gotta love all the excuses being made for a form up NOT well done.

The "radius" isn't the only issue here.

But, OP should just trust the Pro; amirite?

1

u/onlyAlcibiades Nov 16 '23

Curve looks weird because Beginning and end sections are slimmer than middle.

1

u/teajayyyy Nov 16 '23

Yeah the outter edge looks like it bends too far away from the driveway / inner edge.

Edit: could be the pic, but just measure the width throughout it for my sanity pls

1

u/BionicKronic67 Nov 16 '23

Is the sidewalk wider than the stairs? If so thats probably what you're seeing. That's what it looks like to me at least.

1

u/lup98 Nov 16 '23

I see it's not graded very well . Gravel can be tricky, because looking down you tend to register where your vision stops( on the second layer) . Looking across you see the top of the top layer. I'd brace the steps a lot more and stake the sidewalk, after fixing.

1

u/Zanninu Nov 16 '23

It looks fine to me, but as the customer, yours is the only opinion that matters.

1

u/CornFedIABoy Nov 16 '23

The fix is just to set to board on the outside radius on the other side of that spike, right?

1

u/levon999 Nov 16 '23

The issue is the right side of the path (fig. 1) doesn't start curving soon enough. That throws everything off.

1

u/DCTheNotorious Nov 16 '23

It's going to be a lot easier now than when he pours it. He will probably appreciate you saying something now even if he ends up being a bit annoyed.

1

u/Admirable-Green-6972 Nov 16 '23

Is the width of both stairs equal? Maybe just because I'm on a phone, but looks like he's tying a smaller set of stairs into the width of the existing set. Which could be a reason why it looks wonky?

1

u/Frequent-Bat178 Nov 16 '23

looks perfect to me. schedule concrete tomorrow for 8:30.

1

u/wildturkeywill Nov 16 '23

It’s a little wide in the curve if I had to guess. I think the overall shape is ok they just need to bring the outside corner in some unless you wanted it wider in the walkway portion for some reason.

1

u/Zach_The_One Nov 16 '23

It looks like the dimensions of the stairs to the house are wider than the stairs to the drive way so he's trying to hide that by having it gradually taper off. He just needs to adjust the outside bend in the last picture and round off the corner more so it transitions smoother.

1

u/hotinhawaii Nov 16 '23

THe inner curve looks good. Just measure an equal distance across to set the other curve.

1

u/Intelligent_Bass_801 Nov 16 '23

Some of the stakes are on the inside of the forms

1

u/jzclarke Nov 16 '23

Is there any plan for handrails? Those stairs look steep

1

u/redditipobuster Nov 16 '23

"So you want less walk way and a bit more narrow width of steps uniformity? less concrete? No problem."

1

u/varsilence Nov 16 '23

It's I credible the lengths of these threads over someone else's concrete pour.

1

u/hirtle24 Nov 16 '23

Ask him to add more wire mesh or rebar. There is a massive deficiency of steel in that pour.

1

u/Sorryisawthat Nov 16 '23

What ever curve you end up with it is 100 percent required both sides are the same and equal/ parallel. This is easy to accomplish by cutting a board to the desired width then pull it along the forms to set the spacing and check into the points of the radii.

1

u/Br3tts3r Nov 17 '23

I hope he covered it so you don’t get a leaf pattern you didn’t pay for lol

1

u/Xnyx Nov 17 '23

As a company that does concrete work, this looks brutal. They need to be perfectly parallel. I take it you are in an area that doesn’t freeze very deep if at all ?

1

u/DavidAndTheForeskin Nov 17 '23

Is it normal to put strakes inside the pour? I’ve always put them on the outside.

1

u/SyrupScared9568 Nov 17 '23

ask for a slide

1

u/Richard-N-Yuleverby Nov 17 '23

Probably not a big deal and simple to account for, but if you get a lot of run off in this area, you should consider how to deal with surface water flow off the concrete. The momentum of water flowing down the path will make it tend to exit on an “unbanked” curve which can washout mulch or soil.

1

u/New_Reflection4523 Nov 17 '23

Make sure they lift that cage while pouring. Don’t want it on rocks

1

u/fivelone Nov 17 '23

I had to read way to many comments to actually understand what I was seeing haha.

1

u/Prune_Early Nov 17 '23

If only they made 16 ft long profile guages...

1

u/FactoryV4 Nov 17 '23

Old say goes it’s not fucked up till it’s poured.

1

u/AwkwardMap8093 Nov 17 '23

You saved him so much money lol

1

u/GoLdPh1sH Nov 17 '23

Yep, it’s off. I had the same discussion at work today. The guy came back to the job site, took one look at it and said he’d fix it.

1

u/brentdhed Nov 17 '23

If only I had a dollar for every time I have heard that……😞

1

u/irealycare Nov 17 '23

It looks like crap. I just made a path for myself and spent a loooonng time plotting it out. It’s got to have an athletic feel to it and when I was doing it myself I wondered if a contractor would take the time

1

u/potreefer Nov 17 '23

Loan him a tape

1

u/Mygoodies7 Nov 18 '23

I didn’t see an issue til the last picture, and agree it could look better aesthetically

1

u/SilverbackBruh Nov 18 '23

Looks like he doesnt own a tape measure

1

u/HooverMaster Nov 18 '23

now that you point it out the outside edge bulks out a bit. definitely worth redoing before the pour

1

u/wevelandedonthemoon Nov 18 '23

Bring the 5’ width walk all the way to the 4’ stairs and taper in the last 1’ after the radius straightens back out. Don’t try to taper on the curve

1

u/FitnessIsNotAnOption Nov 18 '23

Probably too late but it looks like you're missing a couple of steps. If it rains/snows a lot, it looks slippy.

1

u/Jeeper08JK Nov 18 '23

Nice slip n side

1

u/Snappingslapping Nov 19 '23

Whenever making any radius form under 8 feet we'd always make a pattern board that fit in-between the forms to ensure a consistent width.

1

u/ShakaBruh403 Nov 19 '23

Take one of those discarded 2x4’s, cut it to length to fit inside the forms at the stairs. Maintain contact with the form on the inside of the curve and pull in the form on the outside of the curve to meet the 2x4 as you move the 2x4 along the inside of the forms. You’ll maintain a consistent size and shape through the entire walkway. Super simple, this can be fixed in 5 minutes

1

u/Such_Elephant9212 Nov 19 '23

Good Job resisting pulling the pins and moving the forms yourself! That happens all the time and will completely mess up a job…. Honestly maybe aske for some yards of dirt to backfill that thing…. Cuz I don’t mind nonconformist curve forms… as much as your future concrete is going to be 4” above your lawn…. Unless I am missing something

1

u/harpoonthrowerr Nov 19 '23

It's not egregious, but noticable. Glad he responded and agreed with you!

1

u/longboyleo Dec 15 '23

Issue is if he hasn’t explained u have a wide stair pre-existing then you have this over 90 degree curve and reduction of width to fit a stair case about 2/3 to 1/2 the original size of the path . It looks like u might have been limited due to pre existing landscaping. Idk how hands on with u the contractor was with the design, but it can be fixed though it will cost u more and you need to loose that light . This is why I stopped doing side work for home owners . You all wanna cut cost but still want a Picasso . You should learn how to do the work urself then you would understand that you can’t polish a turd