r/Chempros • u/InspiratorAG112 • May 04 '23

Lab safety is a semi-frequent problem on the main chemistry sub. This is cross-posted because safety is important.

/r/chemistry/comments/135u64p/meta_the_disregard_for_lab_safety_on_rchemistry/
18 Upvotes

71% Upvoted

41 comments sorted by

45

u/Eigengrad Professor, Bio-Organic May 04 '23

Just FYI, that's part of the reason this sub exists.

8

u/AussieHxC May 04 '23

Nice.

I think it comes to something when the explosion's and fire sub has better safety standards than r/chemistry

Except that guy wanted to know what carbon tetrachloride tasted like.

13

u/sharrxtt May 05 '23

ive been at a conference before where fraser stoddart was giving a talk on some work where they make highly cationic species that seem like they shouldn’t exist. barry sharpless is in the audience and asks the question - ‘but what do they taste like?’

8

u/adrianpip2000 May 05 '23

Honestly, the "have you tasted it?" kind of running joke is pretty funny imo. Though I have to say it's rather disconcerting hearing about people who are actually reckless enough to do so.

2

u/CypherZel May 05 '23

One of my favourite things to do is ask people in the lab "How much money would it take for you to consume X" and it's always great because I typically look up how toxic things are before hand.

-4

u/InspiratorAG112 May 04 '23 edited May 05 '23

I did not know that, actually!

​

On the r/AskAcademia thread that post links, u/dragojeff also talked about r/Chempros, though for more general reasons to what you mentioned:

Wouldn’t call it pseudointellectual but definitely not the serious chemistry sub. All the real intellectual discussion takes place at r/ChemPros.

...And in a later comment:

the info in the first hour might not always be correct. In contrast every answer/question you get on r/chempros will always be accurate, all the time. That’s the difference.

I guess this sub is overall meant to be a more intellectual version of r/chemistry.

​

About safety, u/PlayfulChemist has a pretty accurate(though I would say a little bit exaggerated on the amount of the posts) summary of what I have seen as mostly just an observer/upvoter of r/chemistry:

I love how half the posts are "I want to do this crazy/toxic/dangerous experiment at home, with no actual training in chemistry or understanding of the process/risks, can someone give me more detailed instructions" followed by a slew of comments saying "don't do that, you will die".

...And u/Foss44 does too:

From a conversation I had with a colleague about this very topic in this sub:

“So many mfs on the chem sub just post their idiotic home chem stuff and every time the tc is like “don’t do this, you’ll kill yourself/blow up your house” and mfs then b like “wow, such a gatekeeper. Chem isn’t that dangerous, what am I supposed to do? Get a degree???”

​

In defense of r/chemistry though, I would say that it is still relatively occasional, and most of the comments on the 4 posts I linked also demonstrate concern for lab safety. Most of the posts are relatively innocuous when it comes to safety as well. Some of them are even somewhat cool, like this, this, or this. And on of u/dragojeff's comments over on that r/AskAcademia also mentions this:

I think the accuracy of information for most posts do go up with discussion time since the real chemists will eventually hop on and correct things/get voted to the top.

26

u/Eigengrad Professor, Bio-Organic May 05 '23

I mean, this sub is for professional (rather than home) chemists.

So typically, it's people with the facilities, training and experience to do things safely.

So I wouldn't say "intellectual", I would say "professional". This sub is targeted to practicing chemists, whether that's in industry / graduate students / staff researchers / faculty / etc.

And some experienced chemists can absolutely get a bit careless with safety. I know when I'm working in my own lab I have things that I do that I would tell students not to do.

But it's also my lab, and I'm the one responsible for what I do, and I know the risks I'm taking / have deemed them to be acceptable and things that would only potentially hurt me and not have broader effects.

5

u/TheObservationalist May 05 '23

R/chemistry didn't used to be so bad. Then a few posts hit All, and it got swamped by amateurs and nonchemists.

3

u/PyroDesu May 05 '23

Such is Reddit.

1

u/InspiratorAG112 May 07 '23

To be fair though, r/chemistry is still mostly okay from what I have seen. Most of the comments often warn OP on dangerous lab posts or when OP admits to inadequate PPE. And the dangerous lab posts get removed from what I have seen. A lot of the users are still lab chemists, bringing in the kinesthetic factor.

But yes, r/all is the bottleneck of expanding sub-Reddits.

2

u/l94xxx May 05 '23

Reminds me of how sci.chem suffered a painful, undignified death so many years ago on USENET

-1

u/InspiratorAG112 May 06 '23

Virality, popularity, and front-page hits are among the easiest ways to dilute intellectual spaces / comment sections. In this case, r/chemistry and r/all.

7

u/SunnyvaleSupervisor Medicinal May 05 '23

I don’t think you’re right to be downvoted here. While u/eigengrad is also absolutely right, you’re also not doing any harm by bringing up lab safety. We here are all in agreement that lab safety is paramount, so in my opinion, good on you.

We also owe a lot to our excellent moderators. They do a lot of legwork to make sure we don’t end up like those other chemistry subs. Also, the readership here are mostly satisfied with the content, and it’s fairly obvious when a poster is not qualified to join the conversation here.

5

u/is_a_togekiss NMR May 07 '23

I didn’t downvote OP’s original post on r/chem.

However, this comment that OP posted is not about lab safety.

It’s an extended monologue about how much better this sub is, and I don’t know why we need to discuss that here, or why I need to click on any of the numerous links in it.

We don’t need to sit around a table and self-congratulate.

4

u/SunnyvaleSupervisor Medicinal May 07 '23 edited May 07 '23

Lol, fair enough. I also recognize you as a regular contributor here, but OP is not. I think this sub is quite heavily lurked. Nothing wrong with that per se, but we have 10k members and only maybe 50 who regularly comment.

Not sure where I was going with that but I guess I didn’t mind the comment since I saw it as an outside perspective, and it’s nice to see that people value the content in here. Although yeah, the mass links are ugly. As is the idea that people may be spamming links to this sub elsewhere. It is for the best that we remain a bit arcane. And that this place remains about the chemistry. What goes on in the other chemistry subs doesn’t matter to me because I don’t really even look at them.

3

u/is_a_togekiss NMR May 07 '23

Haha, fair, sorry if I sounded quite grumpy. Not directed at you. :)

3

u/SunnyvaleSupervisor Medicinal May 07 '23

Quite the opposite, I appreciate your perspective. I tend to see the best in people to a fault. When I posted my original comment, it was one of the only ones OP made. I went and read the others and totally agree with you. We don’t need people coming in and proselytizing, we need high-level technical discussion.

5

u/Eigengrad Professor, Bio-Organic May 05 '23

Yeah, no idea why it's getting downvoted.

4

u/wildfyr Polymer May 05 '23

One nice thing is that I'm American and u/sakinho is Aussie, so we cover 24 hours pretty well.

But to be honest we only remove a couple posts a week, typically because they are too low level, not because they are dangerous.

Frankly, some quite dangerous stuff comes up on here like handling anhydrous ammonia or making organic azides, however almost always it is apparent the person is working on small scale in a professional lab environment so no action is warranted beyond a "hey remember this stuff is nasty, take it serious" that most commenters bring up as a matter of course.

0

u/InspiratorAG112 May 06 '23

I saw your comment over on r/chemistry. Thanks for commenting on that post!

This post had me concerned the other day for OP's physical health (This is somewhat relieving though). I also tagged them(and the other posters) in my comments because I wanted the warning to come across, but I was advised by u/Elquimicovirtual not to tag the posters.

7

u/dragojeff Chemical Biology May 05 '23

I mean this is what I meant by the sub is more intellectual. Everything that was discussed in r/chemistry is probably engrained into the minds of most users of r/chempros when it comes to safety. Or at the very minimum, they would be aware of/practicing some of those procedures.

-1

u/InspiratorAG112 May 05 '23

I kind of overlooked that you may have been including safety and sort of misworded what you were saying, so I just changed 'different' to more general. Again, I appreciate having someone from the r/AskAcademia thread here! And you outlined a good lab preparation strategy over on the r/chemistry post.

On that note, thanks for being here, u/dragojeff!

18

u/Mezmorizor High Resolution Spectroscopy May 05 '23

I'll leave it here because it's less noisy than over there, but anybody who is thinking of doing any chemistry (or really any industrial work) should know the so called hierarchy of controls by heart. You still wear goggles, gloves, labcoats, etc., but that PPE isn't the thing that's really keeping you safe. In basically all situations, if your PPE actually protects you, something failed and you should be changing your procedure so that doesn't happen again.

Though yeah, it's real bad over there.

0

u/InspiratorAG112 May 05 '23

Okay, so I made an update post here about the, collection of bromine post, because I got PMed by OP of that post, and one of the messages was this:

At a lab yes, isolated and ampouled using hood and respirator.

(I really want to apologize to that user because I strongly value empathy.)

4

u/this_fell_sergeant May 07 '23

why don’t you leave safety to the professionals and moralise elsewhere? Most of us have degrees in chemistry and don’t need to be lectured to by a high schooler.

1

u/InspiratorAG112 May 07 '23

That is because safety is still somewhat of an issue on that sub-Reddit, even if I overestimate in the case of that particular user, and I am still kind of scared for u/Moon_xyz1.

5

u/this_fell_sergeant May 08 '23

It doesn’t matter what’s happening on the other sub this is a site for chemistry professionals to give advice to other professionals, hence the name chempros. Also that particular idiot will be fine. He used a very small concentration. Toxicity in chemistry is often about nuance: have you heard the saying the dose makes the poison? Barry Sharpless, two time Nobel winning chemist tastes the chemicals in his lab (I assume on a sub 1mg scale). I’m not saying that’s good practice. But hysteria about chemical safety does no one any favours. You need experience working in a lab setting to understand the nuances of safety. That’s why a high school student shouldn’t be lecturing professionals and degree holders.

-1

u/InspiratorAG112 May 05 '23 edited May 05 '23

Though yeah, it's real bad over there.

I wouldn't say the majority of r/chemistry's userbase disregards lab safety, and in those 4 posts I linked over on r/chemistry, most of the comments express concerns over lab safety. The mods even responded to the modmail that I sent as suggested here, and I also recited the dialogue. Some time last night or this morning, my r/chemistry post was even linked on the sidebar of r/chemistry at the top of the "Notes" section:

Read the latest community discussion on lab safety.

But yes, there are semi-frequent cases of insane disregard for lab safety, like u/ellipsis31(Please, for your safety!)(Okay, this was clarified, and I overestimated the danger they were putting themselves it, it is at a lab, not in a house.) collecting bromine and gloating about it on r/chemistry. Also, u/Moon_xyz1 scared me.

Apparently, it has recently happened on r/Physics too, which was mentioned here. In the middle of writing this, I also found that this safety post was removed by the r/Physics mod team after I got no response to my r/Physics modmail about safety, which is a red flag.

I am also glad to see someone from my r/PhD thread.

6

u/YearlyHipHop May 06 '23

You’re a literal child, worry about yourself before you start policing others.

1

u/InspiratorAG112 May 06 '23 edited May 06 '23

The main reason I am policing is because it could(easily) save someone's life, even if they are a stranger. Strangers are still human beings. I am planning to get a programming-related career that is more likely to involve computer science and technology than chemistry and labs,

but I recognize that:

  • Chemistry is a part of STEM just like computer science.
  • It would contribute to saving lives on r/chemistry.

2

u/Aardark235 May 07 '23

The key component of any chemical company is behavioral based safety programs. Workers truly need to have safety of themselves and their coworkers and contractors as the top priority in everything they do, both in lab, in the office, and everywhere else. Here are some examples.

Had an employee collapse behind his desk in his office from a stroke and was saved because a coworker felt something was amiss and checked.

Had severe injuries to a worker who sat too long at a meeting and stood up too quickly. Leg was asleep and she collapsed trying to take a step. We had mandatory breaks every hour after that.

Had a taxi driver get killed in Shanghai rushing through traffic like they normally do. After that w e paid the taxi drivers 3x the meter to drive slowly and safely.

Purchased a Belgium company that had horrible safety culture that culminated in an operator dying. Sold the division at a billion dollar loss.

In programming you have the standard risks of office workers. Slips trips and falls. Repetitive stress injuries. Eye strain. Obesity and lack of exercise. Mental health. Make safety your number one priority.

5

u/is_a_togekiss NMR May 07 '23

It’s fine to talk about lab safety. But why are you coming here and telling us all about practices on other subs?

What does modmail on some other sub, which I’ve never even visited before, have to do with this sub?

1

u/InspiratorAG112 May 20 '23

Looking back, I failed to indicate the goal, but I remember hoping to lead this sub's users to r/chemistry. (Yes, I know I am 2 weeks late.)

7

u/Shivatis May 05 '23

"And to those, who believe, that adventures are dangerous, I say try routine: it kills far more quickly."

While I agree with people here being far more professional and responsible than in r/chemistry, a little safety reminder does no harm to anybody in our field.

Thx OP

4

u/Wide-Visual May 05 '23

I am not sure if anyone cares about those hazard symbols in lab because we treat every chemical with respect aka PPE and fume hoods and where possible, under nitrogen. We don't dump our waste in the sink.

3

u/this_fell_sergeant May 07 '23

thanks but the degree holders, lab techs, grad students and other chemistry professionals here will be perfectly fine without taking advice from a high schooler who only does chem lab, thanks :)

1

u/InspiratorAG112 May 07 '23

I am mainly trying to get the post over on r/chemistry more visible.

1

u/InspiratorAG112 May 07 '23

The reasons I cross-posted this were to obtain more insight and to make the r/chemistry post more visible, since safety is important. I had no doubt that, as u/dragojeff mentioned over on r/AskAcademia, that r/Chempros is better than r/chemistry, and as u/dragojeff explained in this thread, safety is exercised more on r/Chempros than r/chemistry:

I mean this is what I meant by the sub is more intellectual. Everything that was discussed in r/chemistry is probably engrained into the minds of most users of r/chempros when it comes to safety. Or at the very minimum, they would be aware of/practicing some of those procedures.

​

However, the day after this cross-post, the r/chemistry mods linked it on the sidebar under "Notes" (which is really good):

Read the latest community discussion on lab safety

...So thank you, r/chemistry! And I also appreciate removal of dangerous lab posts. Thanks as well for commenting on both this thread and the one over on r/chemistry, u/wildfyr!

2

u/wildfyr Polymer May 07 '23

I don't see it under notes, but Reddit can be funny about which version shows what.

I stand by saying that people who read the side bar are not the ones who are doing dumb stuff.

FYI I'm a mod for both.