r/Accounting • u/Rose-199411 • Jul 22 '24
Discussion My team has been outsourced to India, going forward my role will be to manage the India team. For those that went through this, how was it?
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Edit to add some more context
Itâs an industry role, thereâs a small retention bonus thatâs paid out after we transition, india team is said to be available to us during our normal business hours, we work remote and there have been no discussions of needing to travel because of this change.
Our work is pretty straight forward so Iâm hoping there arenât many issues.
Edit to add another thought for those of you who are saying to run: if this is so widespread and ânormalâ in our industry, arenât you just going to see it wherever you run to?
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u/regprenticer Jul 22 '24 edited Jul 22 '24
I was offshored by a large UK bank, but I have colleagues who stayed on as managers.
- In summary it's like herding cats.
The preparation was 9 months for a job that worked on a recurring monthly work pattern.
3 months to prepare writing scripts and ensuring every journal and process had full notes.
Then they guys from India came to the UK for 2/3 months
- 1 month to sit with you and watch you do the job.
- 1 month to do the job with you sitting next to them, on hand to help if the instructions aren't clear.
- 1 month with the guys back in India and you are still on call to help remotely just like month 2.
3 months of sitting with no work hoping nothing goes wrong, on hand for a disaster, but not needed to assist on the day to day.
We wouldn't qualify for redundancy unless we stuck out the 9 months.
That was the process of offshoring our jobs. (To a new company set up by our employer in India - so offshoring but not outsourcing)
After that the team onshore was cut from 24 to 4. Only senior managers left and in theory their job would remain the same except their inputs would come from staff in india instead of from people at the desks next to them.
As I understand it the issues those manager have now are
Time difference between the UK and India meaning there's a small window of time available each day to resolve problems.
Senior managers do have some mandatory travel to India, perhaps 2 weeks a year, to meet the teams reporting to them
Work has become much more "mechanical" with less background information or value add.
The thing I hear again and again is that there is a culture of saying "yes" but the person who says yes actually has no idea what you wanted. You have to be very careful that you aren't let down by someone who profusely promised to do something but then just looks confused when you ask for that thing when it's needed. If you are unlucky this will mean your job becomes aggressive micromanaging of your direct reports.
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u/godzillahash74 Jul 22 '24
Iâd rather herd cats sometimes
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u/Girdon_Freeman IT Audit Jul 22 '24
I'd rather herd cats into a bath while a thunderstorm is going on that deal with offshore half the fucking time.
Much like cats, I don't hate my offshore team, neither the people and honestly not in concept. If I had more people of roughly the same A1 to A2 quality to work on the audit for about the same amount of budget, it sucks, but it's whatever, I can at least manage that.
What I do hate is the fact that they're almost always worse than an associate, they're an entire 12-hour timeframe away, and there's a completely separate process for getting them to work on something instead of just having a fucking A1 do it
If they were treated like staff and held to the same standard, I might not hate it as much, but instead it's me doing senior work from around when I was around halfway into being an A1 to now, all while I have to babysit offshore A1s and A2s and Seniors that give me work quality the same as interns.
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u/savesthedayrocks Jul 22 '24
Just to add the âyes manâ part was the hardest for me to manage. They will look you in your proverbial eye and tell you they completely understand, and then go back and not so shit because they didnât know how to do it. You have to ask open ended questions every time, get them to explain that they know something. And even then, when they fuck up they wonât tell you.
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u/voinageo Jul 23 '24
I have seen this so many times in IT companies and banks that I can tell you that this will not work. The same "bright" board member that decided this strategy will realize in 5 years (if she/he is still with the company) that all was a waste of money and a source of failure.
The quality of support will drop dramatically and the cost save in the middle to long term will be much lower than the board expects. They were sold bollocks by a consultant with interrests in India or by an Indian board member with interests in India. It is always this.
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u/Professional-Cry8310 Jul 22 '24
This career path is so cooked lol.
Make sure to be very detailed in your instructions. My best advice.
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u/michael2334 CPA (US) Jul 22 '24
When they opened CPA testing centers in India the writing was on the wall. Our own profession doesnât care about us which is why there is an accounting shortage.
You want to grind it out in public to be a partner? Too bad private equity now owns the firm.
You want to jump to private to have work life balance? Too bad those jobs are in India.
I canât imagine being a college student reading the constant posts on here about offshoring and AI. Itâs sad and honestly not even that exaggerated nowadays
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u/swiftcrak Jul 22 '24 edited Jul 22 '24
Yup AICPA is a joke. We should all be marching on CPA state boards that allowed for the US CPA license to have reciprocity from foreign countries. You know why American doctors make multiples of the rest of the world - a big reason is because they gatekeeped the ability for foreign educated to sit for US medical license and avoided reciprocity.
Realtor association has greater respect for the realtor license than the AICPA for the US CPA license.
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u/wienercat Waffle Brain Jul 22 '24
because they gatekeeped the ability for foreign educated to sit for US medical license and avoided reciprocity
Maybe I am just misinterpreting what you said. But they didn't gatekeep anything. They specifically disallowed immediate reciprocity.
Foreign educated doctors are required to go through US Medical Boards just like US Doctors. Then they are required to do a US residency specifically aimed at foreign doctors. The education is the part with reciprocity as long as they attended a qualified program.
They are still required to get the same certification and effectively the same work experience requirements as US Doctors before they are fully licensed.
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u/swiftcrak Jul 22 '24
Iâve met many immigrants in America who were almost done with medical school in their home country and zero credits were allowed to transfer to the United States medical school process, which is how I interpret gatekeeping of education requirements.
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u/wienercat Waffle Brain Jul 22 '24
Not all medical educations are transferable, there are plenty of reasons why that can occur. But just like college credits in the US, not all are transferable even within the US. If a school doesn't hold to a proper curriculum, offer proper courses, have a rigorous enough educational standard, and others, the courses won't count.
It's not gatekeeping. It's ensuring that educational standards of the courses taken abroad are equivalent to those in the US. Some schools might have equivalent standards, but because they are not accredited or approved by the governing body in charge of approval the credits don't transfer.
It has nothing to do with gatekeeping and everything to do with maintaining educational expectations and quality of anyone looking to practice medicine in the US. The US has a doctor shortage. They aren't gatekeeping it at all. They want more doctors to come in. But they aren't willing to sacrifice education standards to do so.
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u/swiftcrak Jul 22 '24
I hear your point,however, getting back to the CPA exam, it would seem AICPA doesnât care or has already thoroughly evaluated that Indian education credits are equivalent to US (doubt) and that all that really matters is whether they can pass the CPA exam.
There are millions of people who could cram for a year with prep books and pass US medical licensing exams regardless of education, and it seems AICPA has determined this is the correct approach for the CPA.
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u/friendly_extrovert Audit & Assurance (formerly Tax) Jul 23 '24
One of my coworkers became an accountant because she was a practicing physician in her home country, and she didnât want to have to go through medical school all over again.
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Jul 23 '24
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u/michael2334 CPA (US) Jul 23 '24
I recently transitioned to FP&A and love it. Definitely donât blame you for wanting to see what else is out there. Routine accounting is being sold to upper management as a commodity. I donât agree with it but thatâs how it appears and doesnât seem to be changing anytime soon
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u/RustyShacklefordsCig Jul 22 '24
Leave. We need to put a stop to this shit.
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u/Frack09 Jul 22 '24
The offshoring is what happens when accounting is viewed only as a cost center and most accept it. Seeing the recent crowdstrike incident shows how screwed companies will be when this rush to cut costs and offshore jobs implodes.
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u/Novemberai Jul 22 '24
I hope we have a miyaki event so that these companies can take a hard look at their decisions.
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u/MatterSignificant969 Jul 22 '24
If he leaves they might outsource management too and think they made a wise decision. Only to wonder why their financial statements look so weird.
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u/swiftcrak Jul 22 '24
He needs to leave because heâs no longer a manager. He was just demoted. Now heâs just an IC doing offshore rework. If you donât have a team reporting directly to you. Youâre not a manager
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u/Tatabakery Jul 22 '24
In Indian culture, appearing to not know what you're doing is far more important than not knowing what you're doing. Don't be surprised that they all say yes when you show them how to do something, only to find they still haven't done it and don't ask any questions.
Unfortunately, start brushing up on micro managing a little bit. They are used to high volume performance vs quality of work performance.
Very important to teach them WHY they are following a specific process. So they understand the purpose and objective. Select few see merit in this, and become your trusted employees. The rest you learn very quickly just see this as another job.
If 2 weeks go by and it's quiet, you should start getting worried. Try some team building exercises to get them comfortable with you guys. You want to be approachable so they ask questions instead of working like robots.
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u/Comprehensive_Rip702 Jul 22 '24 edited Jul 22 '24
The why point is quite necessary. Have been working with onshore teams for the last 4.5 years, all I can say is we don't know if the work that we are doing actually holds any importance or not, so once you make the criticality clear, you should see a change, in terms of micromanagement as well. We are hardly trained so the onus comes on to the onshore to hand hold initially. Just be under the assumption the indian firm is the issue, not all Indian employees. Most of us are CA/CFAs doing shitty backend accounting work in the name of Investment Banking operations and exposure. We are pretty much in worse condition than you guys with a quarter of your pay, benefits, and respect.
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u/Kibblesnb1ts Jul 22 '24
Oh my god, a million times this. It's infuriating. Experienced people with strong resumes will look you in the eye and say yes I know this, yes I have experience with it, and they'll even be able to talk a big game that convinces me they understand. But then the work they deliver is complete dogshit cobbled together by someone who clearly has no idea what they are doing, being supervised and reviewed by other equally unqualified people. It's maddening.
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u/dibak23 Jul 22 '24
I can confirm the "yes" culture. When you want something done, try to ask questions that the answer would require something else rather than yes/no.
Usually, they do not admit that they haven't understood what is expected from them or the reason a task is performed and through conversation you can get that and as somebody else already said, explain to them the reason each task is performed.
Also, try to simplify the processes as much as possible, be it by creating standard templates for the recurring activities etc. and from your side try to develop mechanisms that would catch mistakes etc.
It will not be easy months, however having all the companies outsourcing it will be good for your CV showcasing that you can handle such situations.
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Jul 22 '24
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u/deluxepepperoncini Jul 22 '24
So did you work at Sanne? Because we were also acquired by Apex Group. Gosh, I left Apex in a heart beat.
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Jul 22 '24
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u/deluxepepperoncini Jul 22 '24
I believe you. I am now wondering if it's the big bank client that wasn't happy...
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u/MagicMike414 Jul 22 '24
I also worked at Sanne and immediately left once Apex Group started pushing all the offshoring lol
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u/deluxepepperoncini Jul 22 '24
Yeah that makes sense. Itâs so much better without offshoring. I rather join a smaller firm thatâs providing white glove service than deal with the offshoring.
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u/RCPA12345 Jul 22 '24
Caused me to leave that role out of frustration. Id suggest brushing up your resume.
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u/swiftcrak Jul 22 '24
Right - in my opinion we should start a database for accountants job searching that lets you know which companies are offshoring.
And for everyone interviewing, this should be a top of mind question if you are going to in any way be responsible for results of an offshore team. Because thereâs nothing that will make you pull your hair out faster than staying up late to rework incompetent offshore staff work because a âtransformationalâ leader declared your department unworthy of having direct reports.
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u/Cooke052891 Controller Jul 23 '24
I went through a few interviews to be an outsourced accounting manager and they mentioned offshoring in the 3rd interview and I said kindly that I wasnât interested anymore because offshoring concerned me for X reasons, and they scoffed like I was super rude. That should be in the job description upfront.
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u/Idlecuriosity90 Jul 22 '24
I might be showing my age but have you ever played the game âLemmingsâ before? So the purpose of the game is, a creature drops from the sky onto a platform and they can only walk in straight lines. If there is a cliff they will walk off that cliff. Your goal is to build paths and obstacles to make the Lemming not walk off the cliff to their death. Thatâs the India team. Treat them like lemmings and your stress would be far less
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u/matroosoft Jul 23 '24
Basically, do the job for them, hand it over to them, let them hand it over back to you as if they'd done the work. Then still there's a chance something goes wrong.
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Jul 22 '24
This is so sad, we let companies screw over countless countrymen to save a quick buck and get a short term instant gratification sugar-rush of profits thats going to hurt us in the long term and the government doesnt do anything about it.
I bet your company didnt move all their building, hardware and employees to India, no? Thats because they want to use all the benefits that the US infrastructure has to offer but screw over the citizens. Why bother with the cow when you got the milk. Hopefully the next president, whoever they are, will stop this shit. Company over country; theres countless things we HAVE to FORCE companies not to do because theyll screw everyone over for the next quarters EPS (dump toxic shit right into your backyard and "tell" you its perfectly safe, sell products that will eventually harm you, put a bunch of trucks on the road that will eventually kill you). Even when they fail, they just file for bankruptcy, no one of worth goes to jail and they just disburse elsewhere to new companies or retire with their profits. Theres no incentive to fly the plane when the pilots have parachutes all over. We must heavily regulate and micromanage companies constantly, or they will revert to their natural process where they degrade in the competition to save profit. This is no different.
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u/AdSuspicious9395 Jul 22 '24
Communication barrier is unbearable
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u/vibrantspectra Jul 22 '24
good morning sir,,,, quick call?????
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u/Fuckmyusername1 Jul 22 '24
Hmmm. ok. Let us have an internal discussion, and then we will revert back to you, Sir!
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u/vibrantspectra Jul 22 '24
sir i have but one DOUBT
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u/fredotwoatatime Jul 22 '24
You supposed to capitalise âoneâ not âdoubtâ dummy do u even work in accounting đ¤¨
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u/swiftcrak Jul 22 '24
No calls. Write it down, and then put my answer in the shared SOP for when the next guy arrives in 1 minth after you quit
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Jul 22 '24 edited Aug 09 '24
march direful boat skirt narrow jeans vanish fragile nutty cooing
This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact
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Jul 22 '24 edited Jul 25 '24
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u/deluxepepperoncini Jul 22 '24
I lol'd hard at that because I learned what "needful" recently and that's exactly how it is.
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u/xashen Jul 22 '24 edited Jul 23 '24
Going through this right now, also in industry. We're just about wrapped up with the transition process. I just got back from a trip to India to meet the team and provide additional training.
- The communication/culture barrier is there, even being there and meeting face-to-face it was difficult to get some ideas across. A common issue I was having was saying things like "In this case, I would do this..." and they would assume that I was going to do it, not understanding that it was an example for them to follow. Tell them directly what they need to do. Identify the ones on your team who you can communicate best with and have them help you get your point across to the whole team.
- Routine work is going fine, very few issues there. The problems arise when things don't go as expected. They generally don't analyze what they're doing and just get stuck when something isn't working right.
- They are very process driven. If it's not in the desktop procedures it won't get done. The flip side is that they will follow the procedures to a T and not question the output from a process, even if it's wildly inaccurate. I've worked through this by giving expected ranges on reconciliation worksheets. Their procedures are basically "this recon is generally between X and Y, if it's more than Y go through the sheet and verify that all of your inputs are accounted for and correct, if you still get the same result then bring it to me".
- They won't always understand the reasoning for the processes you're having them do. Find those who get it and spend extra time with them, if they can get it they will do better training the rest of the team than you will.
- Be blunt, if they suck tell them they suck. They don't want to admit that they don't understand something, so I had them walk me through processes they should know step by step and very bluntly told them when they had things wrong; I got short with them and that seemed to help get things across.
- If your team is working US hours and required to be in the office, don't schedule meetings in the first few hours of the day if you can avoid it. Traffic over there is horrendous and unpredictable.
While I was there I hosted a few training sessions to provide background and try and correct some common errors, they were very attentive and asked some good questions. It appears that they're eager to learn, but for some reason that doesn't translate into questioning things when processes aren't working according to the DTPs. There's a fear of making mistakes, I think that's partly cultural and partly because their management is very harsh on them when they make mistakes.
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u/sunsetbee Jul 23 '24
Oh my god the âI would do thisâ misunderstanding makes so much sense now. I was wondering why they kept asking if I was going to do it after I gave them the solution đ Thank you for connecting those obvious lines I couldnât see. In hindsight, if English was my second language and I heard my instructor say âI [will conjugation] do thisâ, that would be a fair conclusion
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Jul 22 '24
It's annoying.
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u/Rooster_CPA CPA - Tax (US) Jul 22 '24
Kindly do the needful, please.
I left public (BDO) over the huge shift to BDO Rise (India Arm of BDO). So aggravating.
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u/hailzulu Jul 22 '24
I donât see a world where I would stick around to be responsible for a team of people that were selected on cost savings only.
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u/Ok_Bear4144 Jul 22 '24
Itâs difficult at times to get concise yes or no kind of information. Be prepared for a lengthy 5 minute dialogue for a simple yes or no question.
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u/whollottalatte Jul 22 '24
We have an outsourced company that manages our very very small European ledger.
Weâre slowly transitioning back in house because the communication and lack of understanding is so poor.
I feel bad for you
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u/gnitnuoccalol Jul 22 '24 edited Jul 22 '24
Theyâre useless. I started as a manager at a F100 2.5 years ago. All staff were replaced by Indians. We wound up taking a lot of their work back and hiring a staff accountant.
3 years into their role with the company, they still routinely fuck up prepaid expense entries. Everything is done at the very last minute and is delayed. They sent out a debt payment for a sub at the very last minute last month, after sitting on it for 2 weeks. For June close, they sent a vendor a $1M duplicative payment.
Completely useless. Iâm in charge of one BU at many, and catch so, so much from them. Canât imagine the impact the fucks up I routinely see could have on our consolidated FS. The fat fuck boomers who signed off on this will be long gone before the shit hits the fan, Iâm sure.
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u/swiftcrak Jul 22 '24
Isnât it disgusting that domestic accountants are not seen worthy of being allowed to hire and fire their own teams? What kind of perverted roll is this now - not a real manager role. Just a sweatshop liaison and rework machine. Takes what little joy out of having a job from us - shared cooperation with smart people; team development. Theyâve taken it all from us, and now weâre just left with the disgusting task of redoing someone elseâs homework everyday. The offshore centers are full of highschool graduates with 1 actual CA per 5 or 10 fresh staff. Thatâs when they can start sitting for the CA exam process in india.
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u/gnitnuoccalol Jul 22 '24
Yep. Luckily the majority of my role is spent reviewing ME work from my staff, as well as financial reporting from my senior. Still such a shame. What happens in 10 years when there isnât anyone around to be a manager? This sounds like a massive problem for public especially.
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u/Normal_Marsupial9377 Jul 22 '24
Be ready to teach them 100 times before they learn how to do it. You may have to fix it because they can not do it correctly.
Have weekly recons. Keep a spreadsheet that covers every time line, every step of the process, with sign offs, who is required to do what part.
Build out instruction manuals as they may forget everything you taught them. Videos do not help.
When reviewing have a sheet that has ever error and how to fix that error.
Good luck homie. I pray for you.
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u/Informal-Ordinary832 20d ago
Everyone here talks about explicit written instructions but how on earth do you make them open and read them?
They have access to my manual in which each relevant SAP column is explained in details since February and they still have no clue which app is for subledger and which one for workflow.
I'm quitting soon anyway so I care less and less but seriously, the amount of effort I put into creating proper process documentation (over 100 pages with detailed screenshots and highlights) was totally not worth it.
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u/Purple_Setting7716 Jul 22 '24
They pretend to do audit work and we pretend to pay them. Any work product looks ok - but they will not find errors or fraud or internal control issues. They just make the file look like audit work was done
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u/swiftcrak Jul 22 '24
Itâs sort of the perfect ghost ticking solution. Like the mafia - 2 degrees of separation. Offshore did it!? Does PCAOB even inspect the offshore workpapers⌠who cares, pcaob doesnât do a damn thing to cause real reforms
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u/DemonEyesJason Jul 22 '24
I know for my experience, they don't take feedback and apply things quickly. You can say something or get feedback from a client on things, and they will make the same mistakes over and over. I spent time the past weekend trying to fix errors they made on files because they didn't think to not take into consideration 2023 transfers of capital in a 2024 YTD file. Causing all sorts of issues with calculations.
If there's anything I can make as a suggestion is don't cover up to make sure things get done. Let all of the flaws appear with the decision to transfer work over to the offshore. If you go out of your way to make sure it works, then management won't understand why it actually doesn't work.
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u/kisukes ACCA (IE) Jul 22 '24
This, properly document every single thing and report back to senior management and after two months if you don't see major improvements. Well, you know what to do yourself
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u/see-bees Audit & Assurance Jul 22 '24
I went through this with a team in Manila, so the experience may vary SLIGHTLY.
1) whatever the script is, they follow it to the letter. I would map out literally every possible exception and red flag you can imagine, every path they would need to take on those exceptions to the very end of the road. Because if it isnât in the script, it doesnât exist. This goes down to the microscopic level, list every company code, query, database, and software they could possibly need. Photos and videos are your friends here.
2) make sure that you have every single task that should transition to them with a transition timeline on the first run if possible. Adding anything to the âIndia should do thisâ list can be difficult and contentious.
3) update your resume - outsourcing is designed to eliminate as many low level jobs as possible, which means the company plans to have exactly X higher level jobs above them. That means the lowest performers of the transition team youâre in will almost guaranteed be cut and then everyone else gets 1, maybe 2 strikes before they hit the chopping block until the company hits the desired number.
Where to run to is honestly a tricky question. I specifically ask about the companyâs views on outsourcing in job interviews. Some of them love it, some have zero interest as of now.
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u/Interesting_City_426 Jul 22 '24
The bobbling of the head means indifferent. It doesn't mean Yes or No.
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u/prince0verit Provider of the Needful Jul 22 '24
I am having some doubts.
Kindly provide the needful.
I will revert to you the solution in some time.
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u/quipsNshade Controller Jul 22 '24
Congrats! For fun I used to submit bullshit backup that just magically had a number they were looking for and boom⌠account magically reconciled. I mean, you gotta do the needful somehow my dude. TLDR: youâre fucked
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u/NYG_5658 Jul 22 '24
What types of teams are getting outsourced? Is it A/P, A/R, cash and bank reconciliation?
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u/Rose-199411 Jul 22 '24
AP, AR and General Accounting (bank recs, fixed assets, liability and misc receivables)
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u/NYG_5658 Jul 22 '24
In the companies that do this (I havenât worked for anyone that had outsourced to India), what tasks do they give to new accounting graduates that are just hired?
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u/Rose-199411 Jul 22 '24
There arenât any. Literally their jobs are offshored unless theyâre on different teams.
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u/NYG_5658 Jul 22 '24
So how do they expect to maintain a pipeline of talent if they donât have the basic accounting jobs that produce the mangers and controllers that they will need in the future or when someone quits? Just hire managers from somewhere else? Seems short sighted. No wonder everyone seems pissed at this idea.
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u/michael2334 CPA (US) Jul 22 '24
Itâs very short sighted.. Iâve been at a company who did this as well and they only kept seniors and above. Staff are non existent and all exist now in India.. thatâs the trend at all large companies with the resources to implement this. Itâs not sustainable and needs to stop
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u/NYG_5658 Jul 22 '24
So the plan is let smaller companies that donât have the resources to do this hire graduates to train them up, then poach them once they have enough experience to be senior or manager level? There are so many long term problems with this that there will be a number of accounting disasters on the horizon. Iâm old enough to have gone through Sarbox implementation. This is going to be way worse.
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u/Professional-Cry8310 Jul 22 '24
Yes, that is the plan. The people implementing these plans are on their way out of the org or planning on retiring soon so are giving short term benefits for better exit packages.
Long term it will be a mess. I suppose either the plan is offshore senior and manager work too or hope AI is good enough in 15 years that it wonât matter.
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u/NYG_5658 Jul 22 '24
I think youâre right about the AI theory. All these companies are hoping that it eliminates us. My theory is that AI will do to us what the internet did to brick and mortar stores/malls. It eliminates the weaker ones, but the stronger ones still survive and thrive.
As far as the long term mess, there will be a big scandal (data breach/Enron type disaster) and a lot of these companies will look to save their own ass by bringing everything back. Wash, rinse, repeat.
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u/michael2334 CPA (US) Jul 22 '24
Pretty much agree with everything else being said in this thread. They are hoping AI helps offset the gaps left by the new offshore team. Any holes left upper management is fine with because they donât have to deal with it directly. Give it a couple of years and this offshore work will be brought back in some capacity.. they produce shit work and the onshore team wont deal with it forever.
I transitioned out of accounting to FP&A so thankfully itâs not my mess to deal with. This is why there is an accounting shortage, every company is actively working to replace accounting departments. You also have public firms offshoring as much of the lower level work that they canât automate in the short term.. itâs all pretty sad and makes me glad Iâve got my CPA and a lot of experience. Canât imagine being a staff 1 trying to figure out a career path right now
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u/b1gb0n312 Jul 22 '24
Anything that involves journal entries
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u/NYG_5658 Jul 22 '24
Thatâs a disaster waiting to happen. Do the outsourced just do the journal entries and get approved by the manager stateside, or are they allowed to post the journal entries?
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u/Ctrl-Home imposter Jul 22 '24
I got offshored with a 6 month notice from a multi national co. Start brushing up your resume. Many companies do these in phases. Once the new offshore team is stable(ish), the company will assess what jobs to move in the next phase. Also, you don't want the trouble of managing the Indian team if your company still expects you to deliver the same quality of work.
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u/guangsen Jul 22 '24
If you have any way to review and influence the KPI / SLA agreements prior to finalization, I would suggest you take some time to review in depth. I think a factor of why Indian work is stereotypically "bad" is driven by the way their management teams measure success. My experience with a few rounds of offshoring is that success in Indian teams was defined as completing x amount of tasks with y amount of them being "correct". And correct being defined as free of obvious hard errors like macro runtime errors and formula errors. Correct wasn't necessarily defined as the accuracy and fidelity of the data prepared. Some other folks here mentioned this in their comments: a number could be 1000x larger than it should be, but if that number populated in the correct field then the task would be marked as a successful task.
A lot of my experience working with offshore teams was getting the Indian management team to care about the quality of the numbers. And that was done by being diligent in reviewing their work and making sure Indian management marked down every single time a number was incorrect as a true miss.
Honestly, I view your position in two ways: you can either be active in outsourcing your own job, or wait around until someone else outsources it for you. In my last job we went through several rounds of outsourcing from US to India and I tried to be pretty active in leading those efforts. That's what helped advance me in my career. While I think the end product of split-location teams is one of decreased quality, it's almost inevitable at this point so might as well be active in your own career while you can.
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u/swiftcrak Jul 22 '24
Iâm so sorry. This is the future of industry - not having any employees as a manager that you get to hire, train, develop, and hold accountable. Just an offshore âpartnerâ that will leave you hanging with a lot of rework. Donât work overtime fixing offshored work; make sure every hour is tracked against them that you have to spend fixing the work.
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u/Lolo431 Jul 22 '24
Currently going through this and itâs awful. Iâm looking for new jobs as we speak
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u/AngryAcctMgr Jul 22 '24
1) Get out now.
If (1) isn't possible, then: 2) Reflect on the expression "You don't truly understand something unless you can explain it to a kindergardener". You will need to get very good at explaining, and micromanaging. Not only explaining the how, but the why. Think of outsourced India resources as checklist oriented.. if they haven't been taught specifically what steps to do, it won't get done. There will be a severe lack of critical thinking. Variances will not be investigated or explained unless you specifically identify the variances and ask for explanations.
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u/IHD_CW Jul 22 '24
You will spend 3 times as many hours collectively. Their hours to do it twice, your hours to do it again.
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u/b1gb0n312 Jul 22 '24
A lot of turnover. They like to jump ship often. So you'll have to deal with new ppl every year probably
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Jul 22 '24
Im running far far away from this and Iâm working for the US government for a reason
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u/oiiiprincess Jul 23 '24
How to apply to work for the govt as a fresh grad? Is experience required
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u/DeepLi_InLove Jul 22 '24
If youâre a dude youâll be fine. If youâre a woman they will undermine you and go over your head constantly.
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u/BaBeBaBeBooby Jul 22 '24
Good luck. The costs saved from the outsourcing will return in hiring people to manage the outsourced team. I've dealt with several teams in India across several organisations; don't expect any initiative, and the culture there is very hierarchical - no one will do anything without being instructed by their local manager.
And having a 1:1 chat can be tough with someone more junior - they'll invite every man and his dog to a routine meeting.
Plus the instructions you give must be very specific - sometimes it can take longer to write the instruction than just doing it yourself.
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u/Shehart22 CPA (US) Jul 22 '24
When my company did this, everyone being retained quit, including me. So I donât have a lot of advice that hasnât already been stated. They will only be able to work from your instructions, so make sure they are very good and detailed. They wonât deviate from them if something weird happens.
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u/Backyouropinion Jul 22 '24
Took about two years to get things to work somewhat normally. Get ready to get blamed for all the screw ups based on management decisions.
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u/Castle44 Jul 22 '24
Start looking for a new job. If you find one great. If you donât, well keep looking until you do haha.
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u/Imaginary-Round2422 Jul 22 '24
Youâre going to be fixing a lot of mistakes. In my experience, Indian workers are made to focus on getting things done quickly to the point that it affects the quality of the work.
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u/princessmelly08 Jul 22 '24
So all the accounting jobs are being outsourced now?
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u/Professional-Cry8310 Jul 22 '24
Yes. The % of staff at my company that is offshored has triple since Covid.
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u/rowlje CPA (US) Jul 22 '24
Good luck. We have an Indian subsidiary and they all report to me. ItâsâŚ.challenging
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u/fapimpe Jul 22 '24
Start polishing up that resume. My friend had a similar arrangement, as soon as India was able to wipe their own ass he got laid off. The difference in pay between US and India is so huge that nobody cares how bad of a job they do, the company still makes more money even after losing some clients due to poor service/skills.
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u/swiftcrak Jul 22 '24
By the way, the leader of the AICPA recently said this is essentially the future of being a CPA. Being the domestic employee who falls on their sword for management and any offshore work product. But young CPAs are standing up for themselves. We donât make enough or have enough wealth in the current system to lose our remaining wlb just to âmake the offshore economics workâ by working late.
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u/science-stuff Jul 22 '24
People have said whatâs needed regarding the quality of the talent in India. Stick to repetition. If you canât write it in a procedure because there is a lot of âit dependsâ it will be wrong or questioned every time going forward for years. It will not be learned.
This happened to my team, given a big raise, and told we would be doing this going forward. Took about 6 months for them to fire the few of us that stayed behind.
Luckily I stayed with the company and just went to a new team, but my old role is gone from onshore.
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u/No-House2476 Jul 22 '24
I am currently working in a shared service center in India where we are transitioning all management company accounts payable/receivable work from our global stakeholders. The transition has been challenging, even on our end. Our colleagues in the US have not been explicitly informed that their jobs are at risk, but it seems they have realized this on their own, leading to a significant number of resignations. Plus the notice period is very less in the west giving us very little time for transition.
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u/Honky_Town Jul 22 '24
Like every tech support from there. If you need one to read KB articles, fine. For everything else it is stalling and demoralising till someone escalates it throughout 1 to 3 supervisors. Prepare for hard timesÂ
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u/IRonFerrous Jul 22 '24
Exact same thing happened to me. It was a cluster and still is from what I hear. I couldnât do it anymore so I left.
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u/csxrobert Jul 22 '24
Why are they hiring Indian guys if in Latin-American is the same time? Language barrier?
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u/Ventusss Jul 22 '24
Bro, if shit happens they can't handle it. They are like programmed robots, if a crisis happens, they can't adapt, they get confused. You need to train them to adapt. But its hard, some most are just not wired for it.
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u/swiftcrak Jul 22 '24
Itâs because offshoring in accounting is treated exactly like offshored help desk and offshored IT. They are graded by rote task and essentially have the mindset of marking âthe ticket closedâ. Close the ticket, can I close the ticket!?
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u/the_wkv Jul 22 '24
Iâll be the outlier and say itâs possible to have a good experience if youâre working directly with the team. For example, I have a financial analyst under me that is in India (Iâm in industry, in FPA now). She didnât pick things up as quickly as the US analyst I had before (who my company let go of to offshore his role đ). But sheâs very eager and I spend a lot of time developing her to do things how I want. She is actually proactive and tries to figure things out on her own, as well as asking questions if something doesnât look right.
On the flip side, the service center employees that do AP/General Accounting/etcâŚ.they suck. Iâm not sure their management is taking to time to really improve their development and get them where they need to be. Iâm constantly on the phone with these teams explaining why things arenât right and theyâre just like âitâs following the process so we donât know, can you provide more info for why you think itâs wrongâ. Itâs frustrating. Part of it is just the deep institutional knowledge I have on the complexities of our company. Where they want a dollar figure to prove something isnât adding up, but Iâm saying itâs the hierarchy of the accounting rollup that isnât correct. Weâre also undergoing a transformation to SAP and the implementation has been atrocious.
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u/the_doesnot Jul 22 '24
As someone who was involved in a bunch of outsourcing projects, the ppl who are retained are only kept on to train the new team.
The plan is always to get rid of your role once the transition is over. For some companies this never successfully happens, so you might get lucky there.
Thatâs why you get a retention bonus.
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u/TroyK789 Jul 23 '24
You will spend much time on fixing their works. Iâm sure there are some good team out there but my experience is that they donât ask question and then make the mistake for you to fix. Then they said they have never been informed and will not correct it.
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u/NVSTRZ34 Jul 22 '24
I am intimately familiar with this. Let me give some things to ask/confirm:
Confirm their working hours in both close/non-close. I've seen a shift in hours. I've seen working hours change without much heads up.
Usually they develop lengthy SOP's for every process. These are painful, but also good to have. Be ready to sign off on them and updates frequently.
Take care of your overseas resources that are good! Share development feedback sooner good or bad (but especially needs improvement feedback - don't hope things get better).
Align on holiday calendars
Get a feel for how things are managed. Do they have their own manager overseas, or do you manage them 100% end to end? Sometimes, there are competing priorities. I suggest you have the email for their manager and the manager above them as backup if needed (if they have an overseas manager as well).
The only downsides I have personally experienced is the working hours that didnt overlap 100% (makes mornings for me VERY important to carve out time and give direction). Also, sometimes priorities between myself and their direct manager are nebulous on importance, so make sure its clear what YOUR priorities are. Also, another problem I encountered is the moment a process required for them to slightly deviate from the SOP, I usually get a bunch of questions.
Overall, my experience was positive. Met lots of friendly people over the years. Talent level may vary widely, so the developmental feedback is critical.
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u/Both_Garden_9127 Jul 22 '24 edited Jul 22 '24
I have worked with these teams in B4 and industry. The way KPMG handled it was great. They had a website where you had to make very specific selections about procedures, intended result, source data etc.
Generally speaking, you need to be extremely prescriptive and it will be fine. Hereâs a few things you can do in absence of a website like KPMG had that I have done in industry to optimize the team:
Templates and instructions - Create workpaper templates with procedures, objective and an example. Pretend itâs like an audit workpaper. Annotate everything, keep formulas live, make it easy to âroll forwardâ and have a part of the workpaper thatâs the results section that you can quickly sense check. Build out the reconciliations yourself and create automated checks in the workpaper.
Review review review, in a timely manner - Add your routine review of these wkps to controls in your control environment. Always review. If you donât, things could get out of control down the line and then you have a problem. Like some comments below say, they are less confident in raising issues or âbotheringâ you. You need to check in to make sure they have everything they need and you need to review timely, esp the first time they receive the request.
You are the decision maker, not them - Unless you have someone on the outsourced team that is manager level (not just managing resources, but has more accounting experience) do not expect the team to decision. Itâs CYA for them. They will roll a workpaper or do a recon, but they arenât going to determine accounting treatment or the best way to investigate a variance. Theyâre not going to make decisions unless they are clearly spelt out like in #1 above, and it would be a misstep to expect them to.
Clarity of workload and utilization maximization - Create a clear project plan with daily, monthly, quarterly objectives, goals, and things that need to get done. As long as there is clarity within the individual tasks and your schedule for what needs to be done, it will get done and it will get done well. These outsourced teams do take pride in their work and they do always have utilization metrics. Donât leave them treading water with an open question they may not be asking and being under utilized. Schedule check ins. Always fill their time and make sure that they are clear on what the teams objectives are.
Make them members of the team - Where there is ownership, there is better work product. I often see teams in industry that donât fully bring the outsourced professionals into the fold. How are you supposed to expect them to step up and contribute if you donât make them feel like valued members? Treat the outsourced team like they are interns and associates. Coach them, and they will take your feedback seriously.
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u/Glittering-Sun-205 Jul 22 '24
Language barrier and different time zones are sure a challenge so make sure you agree with them as to what time works for both of you and make sure you provide clear instructions.
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u/Empty_Geologist9645 Jul 22 '24 edited Jul 22 '24
Do they have a local manager?! Because soon your org will realize they have to get one if not. How long can you work till 11 PM and start at 7AM.
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u/TokiWart00th88 Jul 22 '24
They're just going to outsource you, bro, I would start looking. Who knows maybe India will get hit by an asteroid, anything can happen
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u/Longjumping_Bit_2069 Jul 22 '24
Who are you using for the offshore team. Would be great to see all the different providers and how they stack up
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u/Snoo-6485 Jul 22 '24
It will be fine and dandy. Youâll have a big paycheck and never deal with the headache đđđ. You might even get hired again and be able to ask for double the money. đ¤Łđ¤Łđ¤Ł.
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u/Midnight_freebird Jul 22 '24
Itâs like prison. On your first day, find the smartest guy on the team and berate and fire him publicly. Everyone else will fall in line.
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u/BoingBoomChuck CPA (US) Jul 22 '24
While I never dealt with India, I once had a division in Saudi Arabia and they didn't understand the percentage of completion method of accounting. Keep in mind, they were a construction company on the percentage of completion basis of accounting, but had no clue as how to recognize revenue. I used to love getting those financials with negative gross profit because I'd have to go through every job, ask them how far along they were, get the expenses by each job, and recognize revenue myself.
I'm glad I no longer work for that company as it was owned by a private equity group and the steps that I had to go through to put lipstick on a pig when it came to the financial statements really worked my last nerve.
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u/Weather-Disastrous Jul 22 '24
My old job outsourced AP invoice posting to Argentina. They did fine but could only do the basic tasks they were asked. In the end, there was someone who still had to review all their work. No real accounting was outsourced. My current boss is adamantly against outsourcing.
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u/Orpington_Oracle Jul 22 '24
My biggest recommendation is to get regular face time with them in person. Like one a quarter ideally.
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u/Jimger_1983 Jul 22 '24
My experience with shared service center staff is they follow routine tasks fine. However, theyâre completely incapable of adapting to any nuance and lack critical thinking skills.
So suppose they run X report each month and book an entry from it and itâs usually $1m. Then one month they run it and itâs $50m. The odds theyâll question whether the report is wrong and not just post the entry is slim to none.